JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails”

Contrail Facts and “Chemtrail” Fictions

Posts Tagged ‘cirrus

Another Waste of Time

with 9 comments



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This technically isn’t “chemtrailer” material, but is thoroughly representative of one the “chemtrail” movement’s underlying religious “Ultimate Sacred Postulates”, which is that of “any human government is the work of the Devil, and no good will come of it, and there is no more to think about.”

Unameitltd’s preamble to his videoclip entitled (sic) “Bush’s CIA illegally spys on youtube & myspace users” goes: “CIA publically admits in its pdf document it spys on Americans “citizen media” sites like youtube & myspace. here is their document http://www.fas.org/irp/eprint/naquin.pdf”  (I must admit that spelling mistakes make me tense, for they always precede other mistakes!)

Another waste of time…

amazing how many people will defend CIA illegal domestic spying.

Looking at open source material is BY DEFINITION not spying. They have as much right to look at YouTube as YOU do. All activity on YT is PUBLIC. You must be crazy, or uneducated, or BOTH.

Open souce material isnt spying if members of the public do it. However, government is bound by the 4th admendment and needs probable cause and a warrant when their law enforcement INTENT is to look for criminallity. The CIA is banned by law from domestic spying.

If criminality arises in plain view it is the moral duty for ANYONE to do something about it, including YOU, and including a CIA spook (who is ALSO a “member of the public”). What you suggest is a COMPLETE ABSURDITY. Go boil your head…

A CIA spook on the job IS NOT a member of the public, when at work, on a government computer, they are agents of the US government banned by law from ANY spying on Americians. CIA employees may not legally spy on any american, WHAT PART OF THAT DONT U GET?

The illogical part that you suggest. Are you suggesting that BECAUSE someone works for the CIA he is AUTOMATICALLY unable to use YouTube? Since when EXACTLY did PUBLIC mean PRIVATE? Keep your head in that saucepan…




His website “Check the Evidence

This a hard-working man. Grade A for effort. A pleasure to correspond with, too, at least at first. He holds the classic delusion, but is great on getting evidence. His photographs are of a very high standard. He simply falls down when he attempts to interpret the evidence he so patiently collects. One day, I hope, he will realize his true potential. In the meanwhile it really is such a shame…

Hi – just picking through the site. Wave trails are a natural phenomenon. So are the little downward puffs (great pictures), which are caused by ice accretion, increasing the weight, causing a downward acceleration. This entrains the air. Sometimes you see it happen inside cirrostratus and a “hole” opens in the cloud. A sunset event, quite often, as the dimming sunlight allows the air to cool and bring it closer to supersaturation.

No evidence to back up your assertions. Please send peer-reviewed reference for the persistence of trails for specifically > 2mins (with named and dated case studies and specific atmospheric measurements at the time). Also, list flight details of flights in the case study you are quoting (whether they are test flights, military flights or ordinary civilian flights).

Haha. Very funny. Shirty, eh? http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf takes care of the nature of contrail deposition, amounts, and quantities over time, and even progression of crystal aggregation. This is the one that tells you, but not directly, that a jumbo can lay down 80,000 tons of ice in six hours of flight…da, da!
Not even NASA would have timed, located and identified the particular aircraft, so I assume from your snitty response you’re going to dismiss it. I’m off to research on your behalf, (seeing that you seem unable) any real findings on fallstreaks and virga. (I’ll give you a tip – always exclude “chemtrails” in your searches if you would like results without speculation or lies in them.)

Google Search Results 1 – 5 out of 645 for “paper” “aviation” “saturated” “atmosphere” “contrails” “-chemtrails” “-aerosols” – Dec 19th 2008.
I’ll leave you to chase the rest of the 640 results.


“Hole punch”, “fallstreak” clouds with their associated virga, don’t seem to have made it into major scientific research, but there are a few informed quotes about, which, strangely, agree with my analysis. However no flight numbers are assigned to clouds.


Google Search Results 1 – 3 out of 10 for “hole” “punch” “clouds” “fallstreak” “research” “paper” “-chemtrails” – Mar 31st 2009.
Now apply these references to your double standards. I’m only doing this because you haven’t read my blog.


"grid" of trails over AJ's house

 re: http://www.pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf

Thanks – have flicked through the paper and when time will respond with the problems in it. A very quick look suggests they have taken some data – then not really explained the mechanism as to how “condensation” can last that long – though they have put a couple of nice equations in and stuff (it’s what scientists do to comfort themselves when they don’t know what they’re dealing with).
(NO. That isn’t true at all. Scientific papers are written assuming that the reader understands basic physical science. Such a reader would KNOW that ambient vapor pressure prevents further sublimation of the ice to vapor, and EQUILIBRIUM is reached.

It’s what scientists do to comfort themselves when they don’t know what they’re dealing with.”

NO. That’s what YOU write when YOU don’t know what you’re dealing with.)

But anyway this one looks better than Ulrich Schumann’s report, as it has more raw data in it. For the moment, I refer to my previous communications about the grid over my house and how no one could give me the flight numbers. Official responses are on my website – but you seem unable to research them….
I will maybe try to contact the NASA authors and ask them how to find out about my grid – and why these trails have gaps in them etc. Perhaps they’ll also be able to explain to me the movements of Hurricane Erin around the time of 9/11 – perhaps they will be coincidence theorists…
Anyway, can you explain this formation for me please:


The blue plane one is quite interesting – as the plane is almost certainly below 28,000 feet. A retired Naval Officer reported to me last week how he measured the height of several aircraft as approximately 8,000 feet (using the size of the aircraft and graticule measurements) and making trails. How is this possible? I will post this data when I have it nailed down more.
Would you like to see my photo of a trail in cumulus cloud (in an overcast sky) – probably at about 8,000 feet or so? Taken in Feb. On Sunday I was out for about 2 hours and saw 2 trails – beautiful day. Av ground temp was about 10 or 12C. This morning in 5 minutes, I saw about 20 as I was going to the train station… it was about the was about the same temp in the morning…  Oh dear – looks like NASA is not telling us the truth (remember the mars photos you looked at…?)

“will respond with the problems in it.”
Well, it’s very confident of you to suppose there are problems with it at all.

“A very quick look suggests they have taken some data – then not really explained the mechanism as to how “condensation” can last that long – though they have put a couple of nice equations in and stuff (it’s what scientists do to comfort themselves when they don’t know what they’re dealing with).”
Well we all have our comfort zones. Condensation can be perfectly permanent at 100% saturation. It makes me wonder if you understand the technical term “equilibrium”. You haven’t coped with condensation yet. You should look at a Wilson Cloud Chamber. WIKI it.


Wilson Cloud Chamber - AJ

 Re NASA paper – another note. All references which refer to contrails, except 1, are post 1994 (and I think post 1996). I found the 1972 paper and it’s an interesting read. I might be able to put together another article to clarify further the misapprehensions that you and many other scientists seem to be labouring under – and the staggering assumptions you repeatedly reel off as if they are fact.

“They forgot to report a Cat 5 hurricane”. Classic – that’s super. re this: “We obviously perceive things very differently from each other. How do you suppose I’ve conducted a career in industrial engineering design with perceptual deficiencies with respect to analyzing space and dynamics?”

 Yes – not much point in continuing – when you brush off grids of air craft trails and assume flight paths cross – but provide no evidence. Anyway, how do you suppose I’ve conducted a career in software engineering and software design and education with perceptual deficiencies with respect to analyzing data and developing solutions to engineering problems?

I liked your “shadow of a contrail” – highly entertaining.

Write to NASA and tell them what you think about the dome photos and sending a rover etc – see what response you get. Oddly, then, we share a similar perception about this dome. So why the difference between that and aircraft grids – they’re both “spatial awareness” related aren’t they?

I wrote to the one of the Mars Express team members and they showed little interest. And you didn’t answer why there was such a difference between the USGS and MSSS versions. 


aerodynamic and engine contrail - AJ

 “clarify further the misapprehensions that you and many other scientists seem to be labouring under – and the staggering assumptions you repeatedly reel off as if they are fact”

They are fact. Perhaps you haven’t operated a Wilson Cloud chamber, run a gas turbine on a test bed, operated a wind tunnel. Water has several quite unusual properties. In fact they’re almost unique. Superheating and supercooling, latent heats of melting and vaporizarion, a specific heat eighty times that of metals.
The Earth’s atmosphere has some unique properties which you haven’t seen fit to acknowledge either, possibly because you remain unaware of them in spite of having had them pointed out to you.
With respect to condensation, I will reiterate to you that it cannot take place even when the atmosphere is in a stable supersaturated state until some “foreign” stimulus initiates it. Which is why an airplane flying through it may trigger a condensation trail. When the atmosphere is in such a stable supersaturated condition it is by definition PERFECTLY PURE: there is not one iota of impurity within it. The condensation clouds start initially as microscopically-fine crystals (so fine as to exhibit diffractive properties) but grow rapidly by progressively-accelerating accretion. Their weight/surface area ratio increases, and their rate of falling does so also. This progressive downward acceleration causes “pendules” (equispaced artificial “virga”) to form in trails. The exhaust gas particulate count greatly exceeds the number of ice condensate crystals that form from the combusted fuel alone, and up to TEN THOUSAND TIMES AS MUCH ICE may be precipitated at the same time. This is why I’m telling you that a single trans-USA jumbo flight may put EIGHTY THOUSAND TONS OF ICE into the sky.


persistent trail of circling airplane beneath temporary trail - AJ

 “‘They forgot to report a Cat 5 hurricane’. Classic – that’s super.”
They also left the Eastern seaboard defended by fourteeen fighters which they misdirected elsewhere. That was super, too.

The direction that a hurricane takes is uniquely dependent upon its heat uptake from the sea. The amount of heat it can steal from the sea is equivalent to a 100 megaton thermonuclear weapon, so any unsubtle inferring that the PTB somehow redirected it will earn you my most ribald scorn…

“you brush off grids of air craft trails and assume flight paths cross – but provide no evidence.”
For your information the Earth is an oblate spheroid. Its rotation leaves one with the mistaken impression that the Sun goes round the Earth. If you think the Earth is flat, and the Sun goes round the Earth, why should I “provide evidence”? If you can’t understand “grids” why should I care? Flight paths cross at different heights. That’s what Air Traffic Control is all about. I’ve conducted this same conversation with hundreds over the years. Some people just can’t get it. Try not to be one of them.

“Anyway, how do you suppose I’ve conducted a career in software engineering and software design and education with perceptual deficiencies with respect to analyzing data and developing solutions to engineering problems?”
Extremely badly, by the sound of it. I never had time to pursue chimaeras as you do. Now YOU are my “chimaera”.

“I liked your “shadow of a contrail” – highly entertaining.”
I’ve seen many. Your perception isn’t good. Visit http://www.atoptics.com 

A complete understanding of this very good website will do you WONDERS.

A vry non-intuitive crepuscular shadow

A very non-intuitive crepuscular shadow!

“Write to NASA and tell them what you think about the dome photos and sending a rover etc – see what response you get.”
No. I wouldn’t want to be such a dick. I’ll wait until a rover DOES visit the area.

“Oddly, then, we share a similar perception about this dome.”
Well, it DOES look remarkably like a dome. This info’s at least five years old, and I was on top of it at the time. The difference is that I have made mistakes about such “sure things” in the past. They’re in YOUR present. I’m just trying to prevent you from wasting your time here.

So why the difference between that and aircraft grids – they’re both “spatial awareness” related aren’t they?
Well, “looking remarkably like” isn’t BEING. I’ve watched progressive satellite pictures of trails from above. It’s even MORE obvious you’re looking at shuttle flights, in a prevailing wind. You can also see the effects of the moving belts of humid air in the stratosphere which are enabling these trails.

“I wrote to the one of the Mars Express team members and they showed little interest.”
You’re going to sound like a nut even if your interest is sincere. They’re busy, and you’re MAD. (So to speak.)

“And you didn’t answer why there was such a difference between the USGS and MSSS versions.”
Well, it’s a little odd. I see they’re marked as erroneous. That probably means they discard them from run-of-the-mill analysis. Somebody has obviously come along, seen the artefacts, had a go at cleaning them up, thought “****it!”, and discarded the attempt, thinking “There are errors here already”.
Then patient, assiduous, (dare I suggest it?) paranoid people like you come along, find these bits of wreckage, and attempt to “blow them up” as “things NASA doesn’t want you to know“. What utter crap. You seem like a nice guy. Concentrate on REAL issues.


“how is the cloud chamber analogy relevant”
It demonstrates the EXACT MECHANISM by which contrails occur.

“the conditions in question are totally different”
The conditions in question apply exactly. Overall pressure has nothing to do with the phenomenon.

“deadly cosmic rays or radiation from the earth”
Will also produce fine lines of condensate through a saturated sky. These are very fine and disperse instantly.

“Flight data for the grids please”
Do it yourself. Superimpose crossing flight routes from Flight Explorer upon the prevailing wind direction and produce yourself a spiderweb of “grids”.

“thanks for the “new leads” so that I can build up even more powerful data sets and arguments”
Data is not much use to someone whose powers of interpretation are poor. You bore easily. Thanks for your very excellent images.

PS. I have just read through some of your correspondence. It has become quite obvious to me that anything I might say to you has already been said to you by others equally qualified, and that it was a total waste of time beginning a dialogue with you in the first place.
To have a facility with science means being able to understand and interpret the data you gather. It is plain from your failure to understand the use of the word “may”, for instance, that it is in the ability to interpret you are somewhat lacking. But there are many other examples here.
People may pass exams in science (especially these days) without possessing the ability to conduct it, especially as it isn’t easy to examine someone for interpretive ability. The possession of fact concerning a matter of science is quite subservient to the possession of this power to INTERPRET. This power advances science. When this occurs to you, I would like to be a fly on the wall…
It will one day, for you are a hard-working individual.

 All very well – but no one in the UK can give me the flight numbers for the day of the grids – that’s official. You have focused your attention on me as if I am “a lone voice” – I am not. Take a look at Rosalind Peterson’s site for example, California Skywatch – she worked for the US Govt.


Cliff Carnicom did the same.


Deliberate misinformation is being promulgated by some people who should know better (Ted Tweitmeyer claimed a refuelling pod on a plane was a chemtrail sprayer – he runs a website called Data4science).



20 people (some of whom I have never met) wanted to countersign my report when I’d compiled it. Why? Probably because they regard my interpretation of the raw data as more correct than yours and those officials who claim to know all about what is going on in our skies. None of them, when given the opportunity, have been able to provide the basic data I asked for.

None of them have sufficiently explained the video I sent you with the chemtrail and the contrail in the same part of the sky on the same day, at the same time. It is precisely these sorts of scenarios which are missing from that NASA study you sent (and the others I have looked at).

It is precisely the interesting and unexplained data on Mars which is ignored or ridiculed by those who are paid to investigate such. It is precisely the hexagonal craters on Iapetus that are ignored and glossed over. It is precisely the hexagonal pattern in the atmosphere of Saturn that is ignored and overlooked as some kind of irrelevance.

Studying these patterns – and those in the 9/11 data – along with former Professor of Mechanical Engineering Dr Judy Wood have lead me to a new understanding of the world we are enslaved in. Some people find the cage more appealing than the universe outside the cage – that’s up to them to live in it if they wish. The truth has indeed pissed me off, but it has also set me free and I am working hard to show others were the weak points in the cage bars are (there are many) and they can break them if they wish – or at least yank and rattle them.

Here’s a saying I coined: “By ignoring any amount of data/evidence, it is possible to come to any desired conclusion. However, the value of such a conclusion will be inversely proportional to the amount of evidence ignored.”


“All very well – but no one in the UK can give me the flight numbers for the day of the grids – that’s official.”
I dare say they simply didn’t believe the effort justified the results. You must be aware of the vast numbers of crossing flight routes and flights  involved. And that the flight control system is primarily concerned with real-time control. It must store records, that’s true. But to dig them out simply because an inquirer cannot comprehend how grid patterns may occur – is a waste of time.

“You have focused your attention on me as if I am “a lone voice” – I am not. Take a look at Rosalind Peterson’s site for example, California Skywatch -she worked for the US Govt.”
And I for the British. I have heard and seen some of her reasoning. I disagree with her too.

“Cliff Carnicom did the same.”
You really don’t read the work of people that disagree with you, do you?

“Ted Tweitmeyer claimed a refuelling pod on a plane was a chemtrail sprayer – he runs a website called Data4science.”
He too gets a mentch on my blog.

“20 people (some of whom I have never met) wanted to countersign my report when I’d compiled it. Why? Probably because they regard my interpretation of the raw data as more correct than yours and those officials who claim to know all about what is going on in our skies. None of them, when given the opportunity, have been able to provide the basic data I asked for.”
It doesn’t surprise me that others also misinterpret data as you do. However a check out with WIKI on TROPOSPHERE, TROPOPAUSE, STRATOSPHERE, (and all the links contained within) should be sufficient to cause you to reinterpret your data, IF YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT IS WRITTEN THERE.

“None of them have sufficiently explained the video I sent you with the chemtrail and the contrail in the same part of the sky on the same day, at the same time. It is precisely these sorts of scenarios which are missing from that NASA study you sent (and the others I have looked at).”
See above.

“It is precisely the interesting and unexplained data on Mars”

“the hexagonal craters on Iapetus”
Natural. (Fingal’s Cave? There are hexagonal piles all over the Canary Isles, where I live.)

“hexagonal pattern in the atmosphere of Saturn”
A standing wave…

“we are enslaved in”

“Some people find the cage more appealing”
Society’s dysfunctionality is moderated by Man’s mortality…

“The truth has set me free”
But untruth does the reverse.

“Here’s a saying I coined: ‘By ignoring any amount of data/evidence, it is possible to come to any desired conclusion. However, the value of such a conclusion will be inversely proportional to the amount of evidence ignored.'”
Amen. Here’s to irony…

another shadow of a trail by AJ

another shadow of a trail by AJ

Oops – you’re making false statements again… “I dare say they simply didn’t believe the effort justified the results. You must be aware of the vast numbers of crossing flight routes and flights  involved. And that the flight control system is primarily concerned with real-time control. It must store records, that’s true. But to dig them out simply because an inquirer cannot comprehend how grid patterns may occur – is a waste of time.”

I completed an FOI to the CAA and the Dept transport – the response was “We don’t have the information you asked for” it wasn’t “we aren’t able or can’t be bothered to get it for some schmuck from Borrowash”. This is why our interpretation differs – and it illustrates again your willingness to ignore published data…. Standing wave? Where is the scientific study that shows this happening in the atmosphere of large gas-giant planets. More really wild assumptions on your part. Amazing behaviour! So is Iapetus made of Basalt? Hmmm – NASA say it’s “mostly ice”. Of course, we can *assume* it happens to be basalt where the craters are. We can assume anything – so why have science and measurements – if we just assume we are right, we don’t ever need to measure anything. Anyway, your original blog title was most apt “Jazzroc vs Chemtrails”….yep – that was the size of it!!

Oops – you’re making false statements again…
I haven’t made any false statements yet, so there’s no “again”. Whatever you were told, they may have lied to you. Records must be kept in the event there is an incident. It could be that after six months, or some other arbitrary interval, they are then discarded, but until then they will be kept.

I completed an FOI to the CAA and the Dept transport – the response was “We don’t have the information you asked for” it wasn’t “we aren’t able or can’t be bothered to get it for some schmuck from Borrowash”.
LOL. Great figure of speech.  🙂

“This is why our interpretation differs – and it illustrates again your willingness to ignore published data…”
You ignore it all the time by your interpretive failure. I wouldn’t claim to be infallible either – I’m not – but I’m just a smidgeon ahead of you.


“Standing wave? Where is the scientific study that shows this happening in the atmosphere of large gas-giant planets. More really wild assumptions on your part. Amazing behaviour!”
I don’t need a “scientific study”. My scientific understanding tells me it’s a standing wave because it’s a pattern I have seen before. Standing waves exist in all compressible atmospheres, unless they’re absolutely at rest. Scientific understanding may well be amazing behaviour to you if you don’t possess it. Have you checked Saturn references thoroughly? I dare say you have – it’s a useful tool, persistence. If nobody else has anything to say about it, then you heard it from JazzRoc first – it’s a STANDING WAVE.

“So is Iapetus made of Basalt? Hmmm – NASA say it’s “mostly ice”. Of course, we can *assume* it happens to be basalt where the craters are. We can assume anything – so why have science and measurements – if we just assume we are right, we don’t ever need to measure anything.”
No, I was simply arguing that hexagonal features are NATURAL. What those most exactly resemble are the regular hexagonal features and “sinkholes” found in permafrost on Earth.


“Anyway, your original blog title was most apt “Jazzroc vs Chemtrails”… yep – that was the size of it!!”
It IS about the size of it, exactly.

WIKI: “A persisting hexagonal wave pattern around the north polar vortex in the atmosphere at about 78°N was first noted in the Voyager images. Unlike the north pole, HST imaging of the south polar region indicates the presence of a jet stream, but no strong polar vortex nor any hexagonal standing wave.”

Shame. Someone beat me to it.

Here I quote the nub of Andrew’s difficulties:

Since contrail persistence requires at least ice saturation, a sky full of contrails but without natural cirrus shows that cases occur with humidity above ice-saturation but below the threshold for cirrus formation.

 Andrew’s reply to this is: “This is not an explanation – it is a statement that ‘something happens’. It says that trails can persist without supersaturation – so, supersaturation cannot be the sole explanation for the formation persistent trails. The phrase is really, again, saying ‘persistent trails form, but we don’t know why’.”

But the answer is simple: between normal (dry-ish) air and supersaturated air there is saturated air. This is QUITE SUFFICIENT to prevent the ice crystals of the trail from sublimating away. Somehow Andrew has forgotten this. His conviction (that the Powers That Be are nefarious) prevents him from seeing this. All he waits for is some apparent perceived inconsistency. Once he gets this, his fears are confirmed, and he closes down rational thought.


It isn’t his only vice.

If I argue with him that it is only reasonable to suppose (for it is true) that crossing aircraft routes will produce “grids” in the sky on occasions, then he demands that I supply him with the SCHEDULING of these flights. It is as if I had become suddenly to him the REPRESENTATIVE of external officialdom, instead of a friendly stranger trying to give him good advice.

And then there is his petty-fogging “attention to detail”; adjusting the deckchairs on his Titanic by “counting” his “evidence”. He should learn to EVALUATE his evidence before counting it. Sadly, his skills there are lacking, and he lacks the means of countering that.

“Flight data for the grids please”

you didn’t answer why there was such a difference between the USGS and MSSS versions” 

Fallstreak Virga over my apartment, El Medano, Tenerife

Fallstreak Virga over my apartment, El Medano, Tenerife


“Chemtrails have been controversial since 1999.”

In eight years SOMEBODY would have DIED! ….APPARENTLY NOT

A “chemtrail analyzed”, an “employee” infected? ….APPARENTLY NOT

“Chemtrail material” in crashed plane? ….APPARENTLY NOT



How old are you, sniker?

How did you escape Science class?

“sorry, but” – but nothing. You’re just plain sorry.

“if there was a layer of humidity the trail would not form!” – ALL AIR IS HUMID, SO WHAT YOU SAY IS BULLFEATHERS

“They only form above 30,000 feet or so where the humidity is low!” – Yep, you escaped. Stratospheric air (at MINUS FORTY degrees!) STILL contains moisture. It may even be SATURATED with water vapour, even though it contains LESS MOISTURE than tropospheric air. When it IS saturated, contrails PERSIST, and drift to form CIRRUS clouds.

“Aresols like barium” – Barium is an ELEMENT, not an ar****le. (Oh, I see you meant AEROSOL). It is an ALKALINE EARTH METAL. It is NOT an aerosol. The jet engine would GO OUT if barium (oxide) dust passed through it.

“a metallic salt can extract moisture from 30-40% humidity instead of the 70 for normal cloud formation!” – “Normal”? Tropospheric clouds? But we’re talking STRATOSPHERE mate if we’re talking about CT videos on YouTube. There’s been NO tropospheric trail recorded in YouTube, ever. And the word you never found is HYGROSCOPIC…

“Trails should form and dissipate or not form at all!” – No, it’s your THOUGHTS that should do all of that.





Six months after checking ALL YouTube “Chemtrail” websites I have found NOT ONE IOTA OF PROOF regarding CHEMTRAILS.

They all think they’ve proved it because they TELL EACH OTHER that it’s so.

SEVENTY-THREE SITES have BLOCKED, “APPROVAL”(then none!) or DEACTIVATED comments, and have gone on to show PERFECTLY ORDINARY CONTRAILS, with witless comments which, apart from their abrogation of democratic accountability, DEMONSTRATE that they absolutely HAVEN’T A CLUE about ordinary CONTRAIL PROPAGATION.

I expected to find a THOROUGH STUDY of AIRPORT FACILITIES (after all, if they are SPRAYING stuff, you’d expect to find STUFF!)


TOXIC materials would give you a chance to see people wearing MASKS AND SUITS, special sealed TRUCKS, signs saying “HAZARD” – ALL SORTS OF STUFF.

It is often quite possible to walk up to aircraft and inspect them for nozzles, strange hatches, drips and stains. NO VIDEO has ever done this and made comparisons with easily-available external plans for almost every single type of aircraft.

I know that it’s a hard thing to do, but the ONLY WAY to PROVE such assertions is to FLY BEHIND A “CHEMTRAIL” AND SCOOP UP SOME FOR ANALYSIS. It should cost about $10000. Well that’s only $200 each for the RAMPANT HYPOCRITES I mention above.

Why haven’t they thought of this? I suggest it’s because they KNOW they’re onto a good wheeze. Thousands of eager terrified sheep are quite prepared to BELIEVE that the NWO is OUT TO GET THEM. WHAT A MARKET! IT’S OBVIOUS that these “people” are quite convinced that they are, indeed, EXPERTS!

They even insist that you mustn’t trust Science because it has been historically altered by the CIA! Well, that may do for the SHEEP, but it won’t do for ME.

Such a MUTILATION of TRUTH is harmful for everyone.

Now, the NWO may well be OUT TO GET US using FUNCTIONAL SCIENCE, for all I know. The ONLY WAY we can defend ourselves against such an onslaught is to use GOOD SCIENCE, OBJECTIVITY, and TRUTH.




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One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge — even to ourselves — that we’ve been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.) – Carl Sagan



As a society it falls upon us as individuals to live our lives using the best judgement possible.

For each of us it wasn’t always that way: as children we instinctively believed what our parents told us, which was a powerful defense mechanism that generally kept us out of harm’s way.

As we grow up this gullibility has to be exchanged for a healthy cynicism and sound judgment which will afford some protection from the intentional deception of sociopaths.


This is a comment posted at Uncinus’s excellent site Contrailscience late Sept 2009. It is rare to find such professionalism and terse accuracy in “chemtrailer” writing, and here is an experienced and technically competent writer presenting an opposite point of view. No surprise, there:

boeing factory

For what it is worth, I am a Boeing engineer with 20 years of experience in the aerospace industry.

* There are no special tanks anywhere on our airplanes to hold chemicals to be sprayed out.

* There are no spray nozzles on the airplanes either, unless you count the emergency fuel dump nozzles on the widebody jets.

* This can be readily ascertained by simply looking through an airplane before the interior wall panels are installed. Here is a list of all the tanks which are on a jetliner:

** Fuel, potable water, waste water, engine fire suppressant (Halon + other stuff), cargo fire suppressant (just Halon), hydraulic reservoirs. On the new airplanes you will also see tank-like devices which generate nitrogen to inert the fuel tanks.

* Further, there is no room for such stuff to get installed. You would have to carry TONS of liquid to make spray trails independent of the exhaust condensation, and the only liquid we carry tons of is Jet-A fuel.

* In Everett Washington, the Seattle flight museum has a restoration center where you can go see dismantled airplanes being readied for display in the museum. The work is done almost entirely by volunteers. I assume other flight museums have similar workshops. If you can find one where you live, go to the restoration center and see the planes up close. There’s no where to hide a sprayer system where it wouldn’t be seen by maintenance crews.

* The Boeing final assembly plant is open for tours by the public, and VIPs from all over the world can get close-up tours. The airplanes are built in a staggered sequence, so that two airplanes side-by-side are usually being made for two different airlines.

* The majority of Boeing’s production is sold overseas. In fact, the company is the nation’s largest exporter.

* Thus, if a domestic airplane was modified for “chemtrail production” in the factory, it would be as easy as pie for a foreign VIP to walk over and say, “What are these fancy tanks and sprayers on the American plane which aren’t on my airplane?”

* If any airplane WAS modified for chemtrail to add chemtrail sprayers, the thousands of Boeing employees would have to know. I don’t work in Fuels, and I can identify every tank and tube in the wing area.

* If thousands of Boeing employees knew, then so would thousands of supplier employees who go through our factories, thousands of airlines employees who go through our factories, and all the FAA and NTSB and DOT people as well. Also, our airplanes and factories are inspected by the Aviation Authorities of foreign countries (like EASA from Europe) and they would also need to be in on the conspiracy.

* There would simply be too many people involved to prevent this from leaking out. If the chem trail sprayers were being added in the factory, the secret would be out.

* So what if the chemtrail sprayers were being added by an aftermarket shop?

* You’re back to the same problem. It takes hundreds of people to design, build, and install a major modification on a jetliner, and the mod shops are just as open as Boeing is. You wouldn’t be able to keep the secret.

* Further, most airlines have their planes maintained by outside suppliers, who would have to be in on the conspiracy. Those who do their own maintenance do the work in open bays that again would make it easy to view the modification.

* And you have the same problem that you need to get thousands of maintenance people, suppliers, and certification authorities in on the conspiracy. It would have leaked by now. All it takes is one guy with a cell phone camera, and the world would know.

* So what if they somehow managed to do all this stuff anyway? Now you have to realize that somebody, somewhere, has to be pumping TONS of chemtrail chemicals into these mysterious hidden tanks on the airplanes. You would need a fill valve, and a distribution system, and special trucks carrying the chemicals disguised as fuel trucks. That would take thousands more people to be in on the conspiracy.

* One giveaway would be two fuel trucks pulling up to the same jetliner – one with the fuel and one with the chemicals. Remember, we’re talking about tons of liquid here.

* It just doesn’t work – you would need independent chemical fill ports, and somebody, somewhere, would notice.

* And while we’re talking about it, remember that every jetliner pilot has to check the weight of the plane and calculate a talk off runway length and other factors. The charts are the same for every jetliner of a given type, but if there really were chemtrail sprayers, then the charts for those airplanes would have to be different to account for the tons of chemicals that might be on the airplane.

* So, I really don’t think there is any way to hide the sprayers on jetliners. Too many people would have to know, and it would be too easy to detect by passerby.

* So, what if the chemtrail chemicals are in the jet fuel? This wouldn’t require ANY visible modifications to the airplanes, and far fewer people would have to know about the conspiracy.

* This would be harder to refute, BUT, you would have to discard the “on and off” contrails as being caused by pilots turning sprayers on and off. All the fuel on the plane came from the same fuel trucks and the same fuel tanks, so the supposed chemtrail would have to be continuous from takeoff until landing. I think that would have been noticed by now.

* So to my mind, that pretty much eliminates the possibility of using jetliners to create chemtrails.

* Which means you have to be using military jets, and thousands of them, flying unnoticed back and forth on normal commercial routes. So now you have to have all the air traffic controllers in on the conspiracy as well.

* And the planes will again need special tanks for the chemicals, and special fill ports, and special sprayers, and special tanker trucks filling the chemical tanks on the planes, special non-military suppliers delivering the stuff, and you’re right back to the same issue of needing to keep thousands of people from talking.

Bottom line:
You would need a special delivery system on the airplanes.
You would need a special fill system.
You would need independent tanker trucks.
You would need a separate supply chain.
You would need thousands and thousands of people to hold their tongues, and never have even ONE person leave any incriminating evidence in a safe deposit box to be discovered after their deaths.

It ain’t happening.





“Although chemtrails are conspicuous in our skies and thousands of sites exist about the menace the mainstream media and the authorities are very quiet about the matter or ignore and deny their existence. This of course, adds fuel to the conspiracy theories!

But it’s not just the media and the officials that are silent because there is a similar wall of silence from successful singer-songwriters and rock stars as well as celebrities in general! What does this mean? is there some memo that gets circulated warning that if you mention chemtrails your contract is terminated? Are people too scared to mention such stuff in public? What is going on?

I say we need people who can get the media exposure to come forward on this matter! We need stars to talk about chemtrails on live TV and radio!

I believe we need protest songs about chemtrails! If anyone knows of any please let me know!”

There is no evidence that I have seen that trails in the sky are anything except the water and carbon dioxide (and trace amounts of NOX) left by the passage of gas turbines in the stratosphere.

Now water is drinkable, carbon dioxide is respired by plants to make sugar, and the NOX combines with water to form dilute nitric acid which forms nitrates on contact with soil, helping plants to grow.

The majority of trails in the skies of Earth cross the US continent, so it is they that will bear the brunt of this “contamination”. So be it. Their plants will grow a little better, is all. Although the daily burning of a million tons of kerosine seems massive to you, in relation to the mass of the Earth’s atmosphere it is NOTHING.

ALL of Man’s conflagrations, his best efforts annually, will raise the sea level by 0.0000000000001 per cent, for instance (approximately).

Now, as to whether STRANGE COMPOUNDS are surreptitiously being introduced into burning gas turbines, in order to distribute them as an aerosol throughout the Earth’s atmosphere, why on Earth would anyone do that? (It would HAVE to be THROUGH the turbine because spray devices external to the motor would have to be plainly visible).

It just doesn’t stand up to any logical consideration.

Your ignorance has lead to your paranoia.

I blame Western Culture as a whole for failing to instil a minimum but requisite standard of scientific knowledge for the technological conditions under which we live.

Desist this crap!

“I totally disagree! Please do some research Tony! I have been researching this for a long time! The planet is being geoengineered under Caps & Trade schemes. there are many things being done including weather modification which I have seen in the UK and here and is all known about if you dig deep! Try californiaskywatch.com for starters.”

Seeding clouds for rain with silver iodide crystals (or powdered tea!) is completely harmless. It IS NOT “weather modification”!

I have checked through the website above and NONE of the things mentioned bears ANY relationship to NATURAL VULCANISM, let alone the masses of the land, atmosphere and oceans.

The amount of ocean: imagine a cubic mile of ocean. One mile square, up to the height of Vilaflor from sea level. Got it?

Then imagine 500,000,000 of them.

Counting them at the rate of one per second will take you SIXTEEN years.

The ocean weighs 114,398,298,100,000,000 tons. One hundred and fourteen thousand trillion tons. That’s a HUGE dilution factor…


“you can watch trails that last and spread and no trails or old style contrails at the same time, you can watch planes with no trail start a trail and then stop. you can have a day or period of a day with old style normal clouds and blue sky followed by loads of chemtrails and a sky turned to a mass of fake clouds and haze”.

Contrails are a stratospheric phenomenon (not in the troposphere, where your weather is). The stratosphere is generally stable, layered (like an onion skin) with layers of water/air solutions at various temperatures and humidities. When they are moving in different directions to each other (and falling slightly) they form CIRRUS clouds. When they fall without any relative motion, they form CIRROSTRATUS clouds.


Sometimes the layers are supersaturated and only require flying through (say by glider wings) to condense out water and form clouds. They understandably may get somewhat upset when a clumping great turbofan whistles through them. Sometimes (when the layer is SATURATED) the upset is permanent, but in general the stratosphere is less than saturated, and you see a temporary contrail which trails the plane for say a mile or so, before being re-absorbed. On days when the layers are ALL saturated, the contrails will hang there ALL DAY.

Contrails are WATER, and you are not being sensible.

“you can have a day or period of a day with old style normal clouds and blue sky”.

What you are talking about here is the TROPOSPHERE, which is the air between the ground and the stratosphere.

This is the atmosphere as you experience it at ground level. It is THE BULK of the total atmosphere, half of which is to be found beneath twelve thousand feet.

The STRATOSPHERE is to be found at DOUBLE that height and above, to a height of sixty thousand feet. It is relatively rarefied, very cold (-80 deg F, colder than Mars) and TRANSPARENT.

It is the atmosphere beneath twelve thousand feet which is responsible for the blue in the sky (by scattering of white light – the blue “scatters” whilst the red continues straight on).

On bad days in the latter part of WWII, the stratosphere was supersaturated when USAF Flying fortresses set out to precision-bomb German targets in their thousands. The Germans could see them coming from three hundred miles away, without radar, and could adjust their fighter attacks with time to spare. Bad days, with hundreds of bombers littering the path back to Blighty.

Do you suppose those bombing raids were chemical attacks?

“listen Tony I don’t see why you feel the need to insult me!”

No insult intended. I DESCRIBED you.

“i didn’t start this argument and if you have nothing f—ing better to do with your time f— off”.

It’s not an argument. It’s a discussion. I consider it important to correct the foolishness of a friend.

“I know what I see and have the opinions of thousands of others who see likewise”.

You don’t “know” what you see. That’s the point. You’re blogging others down a foolish path. That I feel compelled to prevent. The opinions of other deluded people don’t count for much, do they? Nor should you help to delude them, should you? It would be harmful, even evil, wouldn’t it?

“i certainly don’t need to be insulted by someone I thought was a friend”.

Then don’t FEEL insulted. You’re not the only person that has been foolish in the world are you?

I have given you an accurate account of what it was you thought you had seen. You have been given the benefit of my scientific experience.

Would it have been kind to remain silent?

You should should consider yourself assisted, helped, loved, by this friend, and as a consequence GIVE THIS STUPIDITY UP!



Cygnus X-1



It seems to be normal for chemtrailers not to understand why our skies are blue.

Where were these people in junior school, or in science class? Outside?

White light is a MIXTURE of visible light frequencies. The Sun (which is the main source of all light by which we see, is a very hot body which radiates photons of many frequencies, some of which are so energetic that they would harm us if they could pass through our atmosphere – but they cannot.

What does pass through is mainly a tight group of frequencies, spanning just over an octave, which our eyes can see.

Our eyes have evolved to make use of these frequencies – naturally.


Wikipedia: Rayleigh scattering


Rayleigh scattering causes the blue hue of the daytime sky and the reddening of the sun at sunset

It is more dramatic after sunset. This picture was taken about one hour after sunset at 500m altitude, looking at the horizon where the sun had set, showing the more intense scattering of blue light by the atmosphere relative to red light.

Rayleigh scattering (named after the English physicist Lord Rayleigh) is the elastic scattering of light or other electromagnetic radiation by particles much smaller than the wavelength of the light. It can occur when light travels in transparent solids and liquids, but is most prominently seen in gases.

Rayleigh scattering of sunlight in clear atmosphere is the main reason why the sky is blue: Rayleigh and cloud-mediated scattering contribute to diffuse light (direct light being sunrays).

For scattering by particles similar to or larger than a wavelength, see Mie theory or discrete dipole approximation (they apply to the Rayleigh regime as well).

Small size parameter approximation
The size of a scattering particle is parametrized by the ratio x of its characteristic dimension r and wavelength lambda:


Rayleigh scattering can be defined as scattering in the small size parameter regime x < 1. Scattering from larger spherical particles is explained by the Mie theory for an arbitrary size parameter x. The Mie theory reduces to the Rayleigh approximation.


The amount of Rayleigh scattering that occurs for a beam of light is dependent upon the size of the particles and the wavelength of the light (lambda). Specifically, the intensity of the scattered light varies as the sixth power of the particle size and varies inversely with the fourth power of the wavelength.

The intensity I of light scattered by a single small particle from a beam of unpolarized light of wavelength lambda and intensity I0 is given by:


where R is the distance to the particle, lambda is the scattering angle, n is the refractive index of the particle, and d is the diameter of the particle.

The angular distribution of Rayleigh scattering, governed by the (1 + cos^2*lambda) term, is symmetric about the plane normal to the incident direction of the light (i.e. about lambda = 90°), and so the forward scatter equals the backwards scatter. Integrating over the sphere surrounding the particle gives the Rayleigh scattering cross section.

The Rayleigh scattering coefficient for a group of scattering particles is the number of particles per unit volume N times the cross-section. As with all wave effects, for incoherent scattering the scattered powers add arithmetically, while for coherent scattering, such as if the particles are very near each other, the fields add arithmetically and the sum must be squared to obtain the total scattered power.


Rayleigh scattering from molecules
A 5 mW green laser pointer is visible at night due to Rayleigh scattering and airborne dust. Rayleigh scattering from molecules is also possible. An individual molecule does not have a well-defined refractive index and diameter. Instead, a molecule has a polarizability a, which describes how much the electrical charges on the molecule will move in an electric field. In this case, the Rayleigh scattering intensity for a single particle is given by


The amount of Rayleigh scattering from a single particle can also be expressed as a cross section s. For example, the major constituent of the atmosphere, nitrogen, has a Rayleigh cross section of 5.1×10^-31 m^2 at a wavelength of 532 nm (green light). This means that at atmospheric pressure, about a fraction 10^-5 of light will be scattered for every meter of travel.

The strong wavelength dependence of the scattering (~lambda-4) means that blue light is scattered much more readily than red light. In the atmosphere, this results in blue wavelengths being scattered to a greater extent than longer (red) wavelengths, and so one sees blue light coming from all regions of the sky. Direct radiation (by definition) is coming directly from the Sun. Rayleigh scattering is a good approximation to the manner in which light scattering occurs within various media for which scattering particles have a small size parameter.

Reason for the blue color of the sky
Rayleigh scattering is responsible for the blue color of the sky during the day. Rayleigh scattering is inversely proportional to the fourth power of wavelength, which means that the shorter wavelength of blue light will scatter more than the longer wavelengths of green and red light. This gives the sky a blue appearance.

Conversely, looking toward the sun, the colors that were not scattered away – the longer wavelengths such as red and yellow light – are visible. When the sun is near the horizon, the volume of air through which sunlight must pass is significantly greater than when the sun is high in the sky. Accordingly, the gradient from a red-yellow sun to the blue sky is considerably wider at sunrise and sunset.

Rayleigh scattering primarily occurs through light’s interaction with air molecules. Some of the scattering can also be from aerosols of sulfate particles. For years following large Plinian eruptions, the blue cast of the sky is notably brightened due to the persistent sulfate load of the stratospheric eruptive gases. Another source of scattering is from microscopic density fluctuations, resulting from the random motion of the air molecules. A region of higher or lower density has a slightly different refractive index than the surrounding medium, and therefore it acts like a short-lived particle that can scatter light.
Rayleigh scattering at Hyperphysics
Maarten Sneep and Wim Ubachs, Direct measurement of the Rayleigh scattering cross section in various gases. Journal of Quantitative Spectroscopy and Radiative Transfer, 92, 293 (2005).
C.F. Bohren, D. Huffman, Absorption and scattering of light by small particles, John Wiley, New York 1983. Contains a good description of the asymptotic behavior of Mie theory for small size parameter (Rayleigh approximation).
Ditchburn, R.W. (1963). Light (2nd ed.). London: Blackie & Sons. pp. 582–585.
Chakraborti, Sayan (September 2007). “Verification of the Rayleigh scattering cross section”. American Journal of Physics 75 (9): 824-826. doi:10.1119/1.2752825.
Ahrens, C. Donald (1994). Meteorology Today: an introduction to weather, climate, and the environment (5th ed.). St. Paul MN: West Publishing Company. pp. 88–89.

syrian 747

And so when we see aircraft from the ground (this is a Syrian Air Boeing 747) we cannot expect to see its markings. They have been “scattered” away. You will only see its markings by taking pictures of it from up close.



It’s that moment when you have engaged your sophisticated and educated brain in a discussion with a chemtrailer and he suddenly starts talking about vertical “chemtrails” and challenges you to to justify those… You point out that only some fighter aircraft can travel vertically, and this guy says no, it was a “tanker aircraft” and while you are wondering what the hell, you realize that he doesn’t understand perspective at all, and he’s really talking about trails coming towards you and passing overhead you. Which means, of course, that you’re wasting your time with exotic explanations involving crossing shuttle routes.

Or when someone sends you a picture of a broken trail, and you can see that it had been a continuous trail before some crook had photoshopped it. So you tell him it’s a fraudulent picture, and so he sends you a color-processed copy so damned effective that you can see each individual photoshop spraying pass, thinking he has proved his point. I drew lines and arrows pointing exactly where it was occurring, and he still couldn’t see it.

Enough from me.

I want information, not a video of some guy’s grass saying “chemtard” over and over. ”

But, that is what this video IS! You are complaining because I didn’t give YOU what YOU want in this video?! Are you f*****g kidding me?! I didn’t force you to come here and make the assumption that I’m supposed to “teach” you something! I make it PERFECTLY clear in my videos that I’m not here to educate any lazy and ignorant chemtard! I tried that in the past… It wasn’t worth my time. Learn for yourself!
I even make it PERFECTLY clear in the “info” area that I don’t have time to be wasting on f*****g ignorant chemtards! Where do you see ANYTHING about me being an information booth?! Who said it’s MY f*****g job to educate YOU?!?

I must say he seems reasonable to me. Stars, save me…


Careful with that Cloud

with 2 comments



Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page…

Devastating raid on Hamburg in 1943


in the style of Anthony Flew – taken (with considerable ironic appreciation) from his “Theology and Falsification”

Let us begin with a parable. It is a parable developed from a tale told by Riordan O’Flaherty in his haunting and revolutionary article “Chemtrails B.C.”

Once upon a time two young adventurers came upon a hilltop. Growing in the sky above were many trails in a tic-tac-toe and also a grey overcast. One explorer says, “Some chemtrailing is being done today.” The other disagrees, “There is no chemtrailing taking place.” So they pitch their tents and set a watch, and devise methods to discover chemtrails. No matter how hard or what they try, no evidence for chemtrails is ever found. “But perhaps it is an invisible chemtrail.” So they set up an air sampling machine. (For they remember how H. G. Well’s The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen). But no suspect materials are ever found in the sampler filter. Yet still the chemtrailer is not convinced. “But there is a chemtrail, invisible, intangible, insensible, a chemtrail which has no scent and leaves no trace, a chemtrail which is subtly killing us.” At last the debunker despairs, “But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive chemtrail differ from an imaginary chemtrail or even from no chemtrail at all?”

In this parable we can see how what starts as an assertion, that something exist or that there is some analogy between certain complexes of phenomena, may be reduced step by step to an altogether different status, to an expression perhaps of a “picture preference.” The debunker says there is no chemtrail. The chemtrailer says there is a chemtrail (but invisible, etc.). One man talks about sexual behaviour. Another man prefers to talk of Aphrodite (but knows that there is not really a superhuman person additional to, and somehow responsible for, all sexual phenomena). The process of qualification may be checked at any point before the original assertion is completely withdrawn and something of that first assertion will remain (Tautology).

Mr. Wells’ invisible man could not, admittedly, be seen, but in all other respects he was a man like the rest of us. But though the process of qualification may be and of course usually is, checked in time, it is not always judicially so halted. Someone may dissipate his assertion completely without noticing that he has done so. A fine brash hypothesis may thus be killed by inches, the death by a thousand qualifications.

And in this, it seems to me, lies the peculiar danger, the endemic evil, of chemtrail utterance. Take such utterances as “chemtrails are planned,” “chemtrails cover the world,” “chemtrails are poisoning us with toxins, carcinogens and bacterial agents.” They look at first sight very much like assertions, vast cosmological assertions. Of course, this is no sure sign that they either are, or are intended to be, assertions. But let us confine ourselves to the cases where those who utter such sentences intended them to express assertions. (Merely remarking parenthetically that those who intend or interpret such utterances as crypto-commands, expressions of wishes, disguised ejaculations, concealed ethics, or as anything else but assertions, are unlikely to succeed in making them either properly orthodox or practically effective).

Now to assert that such and such is the case is necessarily equivalent to denying that such and such is not the case. Suppose then that we are in doubt as to what someone who gives vent to an utterance is asserting, or suppose that, more radically, we are debunkers, as to whether he is really asserting anything at all, one way of trying to understand (or perhaps to expose) his utterance is to attempt to find what he would regard as counting against, or as being incompatible with, its truth. For if the utterance is indeed an assertion, it will necessarily be equivalent to a denial of the negation of the assertion. And anything which would count against the assertion, or which would induce the speaker to withdraw it and to admit that it had been mistaken, must be part of (or the whole of) the meaning of the negation of that assertion. And to know the meaning of the negation of an assertion, is as near as makes no matter, to know the meaning of that assertion. And if there is nothing which a putative assertion denies then there is nothing which it asserts either: and so it is not really an assertion. When the debunker in the parable asked the chemtrailer, “Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive chemtrail differ from an imaginary chemtrail or even from no chemtrail at all?” he was suggesting that the chemtrailer’s earlier statement had been so eroded by qualification that it was no longer an assertion at all.

Now it often seems to people who are not “truthers” as if there was no conceivable event or series of events the occurrence of which would be admitted by dedicated chemtrailers to be a sufficient reason for conceding “there aren’t any chemtrails after all” or “chemtrails have been figments of  our imagination”. Someone tells us that chemtrails exist: the German Government has admitted it. We are reassured. But then months go by without a sign of chemtrails in the sky. Some qualification is made — “the PTB are re-organizing their campaigns and new materials will soon be dispersed” which are quite compatible with the truth of the assertion that chemtrails are real, after all, you only have to look at what has been done in the past. We are reassured again. But then perhaps we ask: what evidence do we have of chemtrails, what is this apparent stand really a stand against? Just what would have to happen not merely (morally and wrongly) to tempt but also (logically and rightly) to entitle us to say “chemtrails are highly unlikely” or even “chemtrails do not exist”?

I therefore put to the aforesaid enthusiasts the simple central questions,

“What would have to occur or to have occurred to constitute for you a disproof of the existence of chemtrails?”





“i can make reasonable assumptions.” – I’m sure it was once reasonable to assume the Sun went round the Earth.

“what about alleged contrails under 8km where the temp is warmer than -40?” – It is a function of DEW POINT, not just TEMPERATURE – check the definitions.

“what about the orbs that have been observed in and around the trails?” – I agree with you that there ARE baffling atmospheric phenomena (UFOs), but CANNOT LINK THEM TO CONSPIRACIES.

“what about sudden, noticeable increases in flyovers/trails in areas where there are few (if any) major flight paths” – Stratospheric overground speeds may exceed 120mph. That’s from horizon to horizon in SIX MINUTES.

“all those patents on the topic” – OUTSIDE MY EXPERIENCE, BUT HAVE YOU EVER VISITED A PATENT OFFICE? That I’ve done. Homer Simpson is a major contributor.

“and Dennis Kucinich’s mention of chemtrails” – Haven’t read him, but the whole story’s laid bare at contrailscience.com.

Here’s a note from a drafter of the bill, Dr. Carol Rosin:

From Carol Rosin

Perhaps I can help correct some fuzzy information that is being spread about H.R.3616, the Space Preservation Act of 2002, and Congressman Dennis Kucinich.

This bill will only ban space-based weapons and the use of weapons to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit. It is NOT a bill to ban chemtrails and/or psychotronics or mind control devises or any specific weapons listed in the category of definitions in the original bill. I’m not sure where that rumor started, but in any case, those definitions were only listed on the original bill for definitional purposes… to exemplify what space-based weapons might be deployed in space if the space-based weapons bill isn’t passed. Frequently bills are revised, and things like definitions are removed. No big deal. The legislation is in no way compromised. This Congressman and his legislation maintain their integrity and commitment to ban space-based weapons. It was never a bill to ban chemtrails or mind-control technologies.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich is a champion of progressive issues. He is a sane man, he has integrity, he is courageous, and he is spiritually aware. We are lucky to have this legislation to ban space-based weapons introduced in the current atmosphere by this statesman.

President Bush will break the ABM Treaty in June. Then he can deploy space-based weapons under the guise of it being “MERELY testing.” This administration has announced its commitment to “dominate and control” Earth and space. I don’t think some people want that to happen.

People and organizations are connecting in what could become the fastest growing movement in history… to ban ALL space-based weapons and the use of weapons to destroy or damage objects in space that are in orbit.


This bill does not prohibit space exploration, space research and development, etc., of a non space-based weapons nature. It does prohibit firing one or more projectiles to collide with that object or person, detonating one of more explosive devices in close proximity to that object or person, directing a source of energy against that object or person, or any other means. And it allows for the civil, commercial or defense activities (including communications, navigation, surveillance, reconnaissance, early warning, or remote sensing) that are NOT related to space-based weapons or systems.

There is a compatible World Treaty Banning Space-based Weapons being circulated that calls for a world space peacekeeping agency to monitor and enforce the ban. The Plan of Action will be announced mid-February. Hundreds of groups have already signed on to support the Kucinich legislation, and people are networking worldwide in solidarity about this who have different perspectives and issues but who know that we only have one chance in time to get this national and world law passed to ban space-based weapons.

Congressman Kucinich deserves our appreciation and support. A Senator will introduce this soon, as will a nation-state leader. Go to www.peaceinspace.com to find out more.

Thank you.

Carol Rosin President,
Institute for Cooperation in Space

“obscuration of your blue sky w/ webby cloud things” – Supersaturated conditions bring down a contrail by persistent agglomeration. At first the rate of sink of a contrail ice particle is measured in inches per minute. As the particle size increases its sink rate increases. It becomes a raindrop and falls at 40mph, but COULD become a HAILSTONE and fall at 100mph. It could end up in a HAILSTORM!

Or if it meets drier, warmer conditions it could DISAPPEAR RIGHT AWAY. If you look up on a cloudy but rainless day you can often see that the under surface of a cloud is RAINING, the rain falls for a thousand feet or so, peters out, is GONE.

I’ve often looked up at falling agglomerating contrails (they develop a very ragged lower edge like a woodsaw blade and drop many thousands of feet) but only thought “falling agglomerating contrails” of course.

Sometimes cirrus (typically a boundary between strat layers) goes critical as it falls, and a circular “hole” appears in it as persistent agglomeration sets in. It’s quite a dramatic (but natural) effect.


This, I notice, has also been MISCONSTRUED as evidence for spraying.


“very proud of his knowledge in atmospherics” – No. I had a general idea you must be wrong, and so I went away and STUDIED the phenomena. I know MUCH more now than I did two months ago. You could do the same.

“very attached to being right and superior to those lesser mortals” – Look, I’m JUST as fallible as the next guy. It is only your lack of DISCIPLINE which is the distinction.

“hard for him to let go of what he knows” – Man, I was STRAIGHT for the first half of the sixties. The second half, I looked like JC, and I kept that way until my hair fell onto my pillow. I have been unstinting in mysearch for knowledge….

“near the subject of scalar weapons” – You have missed this. I could explain to you (but you wouldn’t believe me) that HAARP’s EM energy can be either FOCUSSED ((SHORTWAVE) where it becomes local, very intense and dangerous) or DIFFUSE ((LONGWAVE) where it can travel round the Earth, but cannot be focussed, or intense, or dangerous). You typically confuse these two together, add 2 + 2 to make 5, and hypothesize gibberish. ELF radiation is TOO WEAK to do anything important (except long-distance radio communication), and POWER requirements are DRASTIC. The HAARP antenna is directed at the IONOSPHERE, where it essentially heats the very thin gas up there. It has the focussing power of Mr. Magoo, squints at a TINY portion of the Earth’s sky, and still draws a BUNCH of energy. The Europeans have something TEN TIMES bigger. Presumably WE will be dead TEN TIMES faster. Or NOT! These places are NOT WEAPONS. In your ignorance and fear you are ascribing POWER where NONE exists.


“the other phenomena” – Look, I’ve had the misfortune to hear this video over and over again, and it only gets worse and worse. Clifford Carnicom is a confident liar who heaps baseless assertion upon baseless assertion, ALWAYS BEGINNING WITH A DOWNRIGHT LIE. I’m sure it springs from a CYNICAL CONFIDENCE that the gullible public would rather believe him than read ANY BOOK ABOUT SCIENCE.

He NEVER acknowledges ANY distinction between the TROPOSPHERE and the STRATOSPHERE, for that would destroy his lead argument.

Once you understand that distinction, then you’ll see that air sampling at GROUND LEVEL is IRRELEVANT. The world is HUGE place, full of sources of poison and infection, mould spores, viruses, most of which are natural, the remaining man-made. Mould spores were collected in air samples at the poles in the early part of the 20th century. The island I live on occasionally endures a KALIMA – a wind from the Sahara Desert full of sand and spores and pollens which causes respiratory distress to some.

“nicola tesla’s work was real” – and so it was – to a point (alternating current, induction motors, and no further). He made the mistake (which I have in the past quite instinctively avoided) of going wherever the BIG MONEY TOOK HIM. I’m fairly sure it killed him. Or maybe it was his insanity..




The Case against Chemtrailshttp://www.survivalistboards.com/showthread.php?t=60962 – A spirited attack against the “chemtrail hypothesis” by DakotaS – “a common realist”.

I won’t give you much information about myself, or any specific details about higher education or experience, I will just give you hard facts and first-hand proof that includes my personal logic, with many references to other solid debunkings.
It doesn’t take a Masters in Atmospheric Science to debunk this.
I live directly under the approach path for runway 10/28 (28) at Atlanta International airport, and I have a very clear view of planes landing on the other runways. (KATL’s runways are parallel.)
Medium to large aircraft with multiple engines fly under 3500 feet over or near our house heading to the threshold all day and all night long.
These pictures were taken off the deck on the back of my house around 7 or 8 (sorry for the bad quality):
I don’t really need these to prove anything, but here are a few quick “Chemtrail” photos over my house: We have some very elderly neighbors that live next door, and they have lived here for over 50 years and report actually getting healthier after they moved here from the northeast. You’re probably thinking; “well of course they got healthier, the airports in the northeast are busier than little-ole-Atlanta!”  Wrong.
Not a day goes by that I don’t see an aircraft flying at low altitude over my house. How do I handle the noise? I don’t even notice it unless I want to, my brain has apparently tuned it out completely over the years. Of course, sometimes I get woken up when a DHL DC-8 flies over, but those are louder than most aircraft.
Furthermore, Atlanta airport is the home of the famous ATL VOR (VHF Omni-directional Radio Range for those who don’t know), which is used as a waypoint for most flights coming from South America, the Caribbean, and Florida on their way to the Northeast or beyond.
Aircraft flying at high altitudes leave “chemtrails” over my area all the time, much more than your average city.
While most aircraft no longer use the old radio-to-radio navigation of the 70s and 80s, ATL VOR remains a very commonly used waypoint for air travel.
Here is a live radar view of part of the Atlanta Center airspace provided by Flight-Aware. Flights in blue are to/from KATL; flights in green are in the vicinity. (aka flying over ATL VOR or over south Atlanta): http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KATL The radar is at the upper right.
After all this, I take NO medication of any kind, I have excellent vision, no real hearing issues, no green warts growing all over my body, and no strange mutations. Must be those Chemtrails.
Quote: Originally Posted by FreeDictionary.com con·trail (kon-trail) n. A visible trail of streaks of condensed water vapor or ice crystals sometimes forming in the wake of an aircraft. Also called vapor trail.
In this section will explain some of the most popular arguments for the Chemtrail myth using scientific facts and details.
Argument 1
How do you explain their duration of many hours or length in 100’s of miles?
Vapor/contrails cool and dissipate almost instantly. How long a contrail lingers is completely determined by how much moisture is in the air. (aka Humidity) It is similar to what happens when you can see your breath on a cold day, sometimes your breath is only visible for an instant, sometimes it billows up and dissipates before eventually disappearing.
Aircraft contrails are similar to this because the exhaust gas temperature can reach 1100 deg C, and contains plenty of moisture.
The surrounding air at high altitudes on the other hand can be -40 deg C, and will always produce a contrail unless there is little or no moisture in the atmosphere. (This explains why some people claim they rarely see contrails over deserts like outback Australia or the American Midwest.)
Argument 2
I’ve seen commercial flights nearly side by side one creating a trail that disappears quickly, while the other creates a trail that lingers for hours. This is proof of Chemtrails.
What you saw was two aircraft flying at different altitudes, the temperature gets cooler as you get higher, therefore the water vapor contrails will linger much longer at 36,000 feet as compared to 15,000 feet. The aircraft you saw could also have been different models, with older and newer engines which will create different contrails every time.
Argument 3
Then why aren’t there any “normal” clouds forming at the same time and altitude?
There are ‘normal’ clouds at high altitudes.
Cirrus clouds almost always form above 26,000ft, except on colder days where they may be as low as 18,000 feet. Generally however, these ‘low altitude cirrus clouds’ are classified as Cirrostratus.
Cirrus clouds are almost always mistaken as chemtrail ‘blankets’.
Argument 4
I never saw these contrails 30 years ago, something is different now.
What is different: the aircraft – the aircraft’s engines – the altitudes that aircraft fly at – the amount of air traffic – the air traffic control system itself.
30 years ago, aircraft and aircraft travel were dramatically different from what they are now.
Namely, in the 1960s – 1980s the (Boeing only for example) 727, 737, and 747 were introduced. The 707 was the one of the most popular aircraft of that time and I will use that as an example. We will obviously focus on the engines because that is the source of these ‘different’ contrails.
The 707 used Turbofan JT8D-200 with 21,700 Pounds of thrust. The 727 used the same engines originally, and was actually the original rollout aircraft to use this type of engine.
High-bypass engines are more likely to make robust contrails than the low-bypass smoke-makers of the 60s, 70s, and parts of the 80s. Most if not all these planes have been retired, or upgraded and sold to cargo airlines. There was much less air traffic during the 60s and 70s as well.
Quote: “…in both 1959 and in 1960 these aircraft flew a total of 8.9 million hours…”
I couldn’t find the exact number of hours flown in 2008, but you can’t tell me it is not more by hundreds of percents. (It’s 5000 percent!)
Maybe you didn’t see them at all, or you saw something different, but other people have.
Contrails photographed and documented in early 1940s films:
YouTube – UK Contrails in 1941
YouTube – BattleOfTheBulgeContrails
YouTube – Memphis Belle WWII Bomber Contrails -…
“Vapour trails left by British bombers on route to attack flying-bomb sites encircle the dome of St. Paul’s Cathedral. London, 1944.”
There are more airplanes in the sky these days…
I believe I’ve said enough about this argument.
Argument 5
We have seen satellite photos clearly showing chemtrails that generally see increased patterns over populated areas.
I guess they are talking about a photo like this: http://oea.larc.nasa.gov/news_rels/2…contrails1.jpg
This increase of ‘chemtrails’ can be attributed to one thing; an increase of air travel, and the change of the Air Traffic Control System in 1995.
As I said at the beginning, most aircraft now have advanced FMC/FMS/MCDU systems that use predetermined Latitude/Longitude waypoints to get the aircraft to where it is going, but they still use ATL and other VOR radios as waypoints, with the NAV radios as backup. There is a VOR radio, or common waypoints at virtually all airports above regional. VORs don’t even have to be at airports…
Heres a random Google images photo of a VOR transmitter: http://www.triodetic.com/Photos/Web%…Photos/VOR.jpg
Argument 6
If these are really commercial aircraft, then why are some contrails vertical?
They are not vertical. Please don’t take this as condescending… But the earth is A SPHERE. A flight in the distance coming straight at you is most likely flying straight and level, but because they are coming up over the horizon, it appears they are leaving vertical contrails.
Argument 7
This picture proves that the government is using airline aircraft to spray chemicals over cities: http://www.airliners.net/photo/Boein…-LR/0855967/L/ .
I have gotten this one a lot recently, and it can be explained easily. What you are seeing is a Boeing 777-200 aircraft fitted with extensive flight-test instrumentation, measuring equipment and ballast tanks that can be filled with water to simulate the weight of a full load of passengers and cargo. This method of testing has been used for years and years and years. Look it up. The video showing this is a cynical forgery.
Argument 8
How do you explain the documented traces of Barium Oxide in the air of large cities?
First of all, the Military has developed a method of reducing jet emissions using Barium Oxide in 1995.
Quote: Originally Posted by Above Military report “…This report describes laboratory studies of a new NOx control process based on the surprising ability of barium oxide to rapidly capture NO, a process that could be ideally suited to controlling NOx emission from jet engine test cells…”
It is widely known that a type of Barium is used in the manufacture of rubber and plastics, which is common in parts of aircraft fuel tanks, and fuel storage containers on the ground. Generally, the manufactures of fuel tank parts don’t worry about getting a little barium in jet fuel, they are not expecting it to be drank… Barium is actually a very widely-used substance in industrial manufacturing, so it is not surprising to find Barium Oxide in the air.
Argument 9
How do you explain the traces of aluminum found in our air and water supply?
Aluminum is a VERY common metal. It is found in CLAY (as complex silicates of aluminum) and lightweight parts find their way into the kitchen, the automotive, sipbuilding and aero=industries.
It is a lightweight metal that is prized for its strength-to-weight ratio. Aluminum is here to stay folks and it’s all around you, even in the computer you are reading this on… so get used to it.
Argument 10
Chemtrails leave large shadows and dark lines in the atmosphere, this is not natural and normal contrails don’t do this.
I’ll let this web-page do the debunking of this: http://contrailscience.com/contrails…es-chemtrails/
Argument 11
Photographs have been taken that clearly show aircraft making grid patterns over cities, this is clearly a coordinated attack on our population.
I had typed up a long explanation for this, but after 3rd editing, I decided I would just show you the following videos and live radar maps:
YouTube – Highly Skilled Air Traffic Controller
YouTube – Fed Ex Ant Hill (and that was only Fedex…)
YouTube – typical USA Air Traffic – ALL active…
YouTube – Atlanta Flight Animation (And that was only Atlanta, the airport I live 7 miles from.)
There are thousands upon thousands of aircraft airborne at ANY GIVEN TIME, they are bound to cross each others path once in a while.
Argument 12
We see airshow aircraft releasing smoke and gas all the time, why couldn’t the government do it?
First of all, I never said the government COULDN’T do it, I’m sure if they wanted to they could, but it just doesn’t happen. Again, Contrailscience.com explains it as it is. ‘THINGS THAT ARE NOT CONTRAILS (OR CHEMTRAILS):
Argument 13
This photo is proof that chemicals are being sprayed from aircraft; clearly something is coming out of the wings of this aircraft! http://www.airliners.net/photo/Virgi…642/1088680/L/
Oh no, another “proof” photograph… This is one of nature’s amazing things that happens when humans fly around like birds… this is not only a contrail, but also an aerodynamic contrail which is formed by the sudden reduction and normalizing of pressure in the air as it moves over and around the wing. When the pressure of air is reduced (or any gas for that matter), its temperature also falls. The reduced temperature causes microscopic drops of water to condense, which then will freeze in the frigid temperature of the high altitude. The frozen drops get larger as more water condenses and freezes on them. The different sized ice crystals have different optical properties, which affect different wavelengths of light, which will cause the spectrum of light to become visible, and this explains the “rainbow” effect. This is a more scientific explanation for this effect courtesy of Contrailscience.com:
Argument 14
I have personally sat and watched aircraft turn their contrails on and off, this cannot be explained by chemtrail debunkers.
What you are seeing is aerodynamic contrails (as explained above) forming in patchy air.
YouTube – Scia off – Scia on
Scientific explanations:
Argument 15
During high chemtrail activity, hospital visits and sickness is reported to go up, this is clear proof that chemicals are present in aircraft contrails.
Airline activity only goes up or down depending on what time of day it is, and it is fairly consistent.
Let’s take the worlds busiest airport as an example: http://flightaware.com/analysis/graphs/airport/KATL
What you are feeling is allergies, and general bad feeling. This is because contrails will generally linger longer in higher humidity and dropping pressure, two things that commonly occur before a rain or thunderstorm. In the days following documentation of lingering contrails, rain or general bad weather usually occur.
Argument 16
Airline pilots acknowledge the existence of chemtrails.
No they don’t. Airline pilots deny, and can prove the contrary because they happen to know more than the average conspiracy theorist who sits behind their computer all day. My favorite debunking of chemtrails by an Airline Pilot with 15 years of experience:
If anyone would like to submit an argument, I’d be more than happy to produce a freshly-baked debunking for it.
A rant of logic…
Aerial spraying from airline altitude would be a highly inefficient and imprecise mode of delivering toxic chemicals to ground-based targets. For example, Pesticides are often sprayed on crops from airplanes flying at 30ft and below. Mosquito spraying is generally done from an altitude of 150 feet or less. Chemtrails are supposedly sprayed from an altitude of 30,000 feet or higher, where winds are known to be very strong and unpredictable, and would likely disperse them very unpredictably.
If the government was going to use chemicals to secretly control the population, it would be more effective to put them in our water and food supply, or if inhalation were necessary, to release chemicals from cars or buses.
Like all other conspiracy theories of this nature, the Chemtrail theory will eventually crash and burn (no pun), and go down in urban history as one of the largest and most elaborate internet hoaxes of all time.
There is simply no such thing as chemtrails in today’s world. It is amusing to watch people try and analyze “chemtrails” when they don’t even have a clue about airplanes, weather, ATC or aviation in general.
Let’s just assume for the sake of argument that the government does in fact mix viruses and toxic chemicals into jet fuel for the purpose of raining down on civilization. Why then do we only see these ‘chemtrails’ at high altitude? Why do planes not produce visible chemtrails on final for landing or on the ground taxiing, or during takeoff? I’ve never seen this and I’ve lived under an airport approach path for 16 years… Why have passengers onboard not noticed the chemicals being sprayed out of the wings of the aircraft during flight? I’ve taken plane rides many times in my life and I’ve never seen these chemicals being sprayed out of the wings of any aircraft.
I’ve heard some people argue that there are viruses mixed in with the fuel for the purpose of testing the population. I can debunk this in 3 seconds.
The heat of the burning fuel would kill any viruses instantly.

Some will argue that if I really believed chemtrails don’t exist, I would not take so much time trying to disprove them. In reality however, I simply hate to see so many people misled into believing something as false as chemtrails.
We must stop and realize that the sky is full of amazing and bizarre phenomena, such as rainbows, cirrus clouds, lightning, tornadoes, hurricanes, hail, the northern lights etc.
But as history has shown us time, after time again, that without understanding the underlying mechanisms of natural things that happen here on earth, humans always assume that fearsome monsters are responsible.

‘nuf said.




dragon1These ambiguities, redundances, and deficiences recall those attributed by Dr. Franz Kuhn to a certain Chinese encyclopedia entitled Celestial Emporium of Benevolent Knowledge. On those remote pages it is written that animals are divided into: (a) those that belong to the Emperor, (b) embalmed ones, (c) those that are trained, (d) suckling pigs, (e) mermaids, (f) fabulous ones, (g) stray dogs, (h) those that are included in this classification, (i) those that tremble as if they were mad, (j) innumerable ones, (k) those drawn with a very fine camel’s hair brush, (l) others, (m) those that have just broken a flower vase, (n) those that resemble flies from a distance.




You are needlessly worrying about something that DOESN’T EXIST.

WORRY about M-I-C, Electoral FRAUD, Federal Reserve, Education, Health – and CELLPHONES.





Modern US Navy RR-129 and RR-124 chaff countermeasures and containers. Note how the strips of the RR-129 chaff, bottom, are of different lengths, while those of the RR-124, top, are all the same length. The RR-124 is designed to prevent interference with civil ATC radar systems.


Chaff, originally called “Window” by the British, and Düppel by the Second World War era German Luftwaffe (from the Berlin suburb it was first found near), is a radar countermeasure in which aircraft or other targets spread a cloud of small, thin pieces of aluminium, metallised glass fibre or plastic, which either appears as a cluster of secondary targets on radar screens or swamps the screen with multiple returns.
Modern armed forces use chaff (in naval applications, for instance, using short-range SRBOC rockets) to distract radar-guided missiles from their targets. Most military aircraft and warships have chaff dispensing systems for self-defense. An intercontinental ballistic missile may release in its midcourse phase several independent warheads, a large number of decoys, and chaff.
It can also be used to signal distress by an aircraft when communications are not functional. This has the same effect as an SOS, and can be picked up on radar. It is done by dropping chaff every 2 minutes.

Second World War

Professor R.V. Jones
Professor Frederick Lindemann
Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Harris

The idea of using chaff developed independently in the UK and in Germany.
As far back as 1937, R. V. Jones had suggested that a piece of metal foil falling through the air might create radar echoes. In early 1942, a Telecommunications Research Establishment (TRE) researcher named Joan Curran investigated the idea and came up with a scheme for dumping packets of aluminium strips from aircraft to generate a cloud of false echoes. From a practical point of view it was found the most effective version were strips of black paper backed with aluminium foil cut to strips exactly 27 centimetres by 2 centimetres and packed into bundles weighing one pound apiece. The Head of the TRE, A. P. Rowe, code-named the device as “Window”.
Meanwhile in Germany, similar research had led to the development of Düppel. Once the idea had been passed to the US, Fred Whipple developed a system (according to Harvard Gazette Archives) for dispensing strips for the USAAF, but it is not known if this was ever used.
The systems were all essentially identical in concept: small aluminium strips (or wires) cut to one-half of the target radar’s wavelength. When hit by the radar, such lengths of metal resonate and re-radiate the signal. Opposing defenses would find it almost impossible to pick out the “real” aircraft from the echoes from the chaff. Other radar-confusing techniques included “Mandrel”, “Piperack”, and “Jostle”.
However, unaware of the opposing air force’s knowledge of the chaff concept, planners felt that using it was even more dangerous than not, since, as soon as it was used, the enemy could easily duplicate it and use it against them. In particular, the British government’s leading scientific adviser, Professor Lindemann, balefully pointed out that if the RAF used it against the Germans, the Luftwaffe would quickly copy it and could launch a new Blitz. This caused concern in RAF Fighter Command and Anti-Aircraft Command, who managed to suppress the use of Window until July 1943. At this time, it was felt the new generation of centimetric radars available to Fighter Command would deal with any Luftwaffe response to RAF Bomber Command use.
Examination of the Würzburg radar equipment brought back to the UK during Operation Biting and subsequent reconnaissance revealed to the British that all German radars were operating in no more than three major frequency ranges, and thus were prone to jamming. “Bomber” Harris, Commander-in-Chief (C-in-C) of RAF Bomber Command, finally got approval to use Window as part of Operation Gomorrah, the fire raids against Hamburg.

Fred Whipple

Sir Robert Watson-Watt


The US RRL organization learned about Window from the British, and put their own experts to work on how to best make use of it. A noted antenna expert, Dr. L.J. Chu, worked out the theory, and then Fred Whipple, an astronomer well-known in his field for his definitive work on comets, figured out how it should best be fabricated and used. Whipple, like many of the boffins pressed into war service, would retain fond memories of his military work and kept a prototype Window-cutting machine in his office for the rest of his career.
Window was being stockpiled in quantity, but there was still no commitment to its use. R.V. Jones kept lobbying for the go-ahead. On 23 June 1943, Churchill called a meeting of Chiefs of Staff to consider the question of Window. Jones made his case; Watson-Watt was still opposed, but Leigh-Mallory, in charge of Fighter Command, agreed that reducing the suffering of Bomber Command outweighed his concerns over the air defense of Britain. Churchill thought the matter over for a moment, and then called on his instinct for theatrical phrases: “Very well. Let us open the Window.”
Window went into operation in July 1943, during Operation GOMORRAH, the devastating raids on Hamburg. The Window strips were 30 centimeters long and 1.5 centimeters wide (12 by 0.6 inches) and were manually tossed out by crew members in packets containing 2,000 strips each. 46,000 packets were dropped. Window completely disrupted German air defenses. Night fighter radar operators reported ghostly British bombers approaching them at high speed and then disappearing abruptly, over and over again. Out of 700 bombers in the raid, only twelve were shot down.
Through most of the rest of the war, Window was dispensed by hand, though late in the conflict bombers were fitted with automatic dispensers. Bomber forces not only used Window for concealment, they also used it for decoying the defenses, dumping Window screens at a right angle to the actual direction of the main bomber attack, or even flying in circles around a target and dropping Window bundles to baffle the defenders.
In another one of the many ironies of the Wizard War, the Japanese had actually opened the Window in May, the month before Churchill’s decision, when they dropped strips of “giman-shi (deceiving paper)” to jam SCR-268 radars during a raid on Guadalcanal. The Japanese had discovered the same obvious trick, but the news failed to reach the Allied high command before they decided to let the cat out of the bag. To add to the irony, the Japanese never managed to obtain a real advantage from their giman-shi. One problem appears to have been the scarcity of aluminum, which meant they couldn’t produce enough giman-shi to make a real difference.

The first aircrew trained to use Window were 76 squadron. Twenty-four crews were briefed on how to drop the bundles of aluminised-paper strips (treated-paper was used to minimise the weight and maximise the time that the strips would remain in the air, prolonging the effect), one every minute through the flare chute, using a stopwatch to time them. The results were spectacular. The radar guided master searchlights wandered aimlessly across the sky. The AA guns fired randomly or not at all and the night fighters, their radar displays swamped with false echoes, utterly failed to find the bomber stream. A vast area of Hamburg was devastated with the loss of only 12 bombers. Squadrons quickly had special chutes fitted to their bombers to make the deployment even easier. Seeing this as a development that made it safer to go on ops, many crews got in as many trips as they could before the Germans found a countermeasure.
Although the metal strips puzzled the German civilians at first, the German scientists knew exactly what they were because they had developed Düppel themselves and refrained from using it for exactly the same reasons as Lindemann had pointed out to the British. Thus for over a year the curious situation arose where both sides of the conflict knew how to use chaff to jam the other sides radar, but refrained from doing so fearing that if they did so the other side would ‘learn the trick’ and use it against themselves.
The use of Window rendered the ground-controlled ‘Himmelbett’ (German for “canopy bed”) fighters of the Kammhuber Line unable to track their targets in the night sky and left radar-guided guns and spotlights useless. In response to this, a new tactic, called Wilde Sau, or ‘Wild Sow’, was developed by Oberst Hajo Herrmann to cope with the lack of accurate ground guidance, and led to the creation of three new fighter wings dedicated to these tactics, numbered JG 300, JG 301 and JG 302. Ground operators would radio-direct single seat fighters and night fighters to areas where the concentrations of chaff were greatest (which would indicate the source of the chaff), and allow the fighters to visually acquire their targets, often against the fires and searchlights below. A few of the single seat fighters used by these new wings had special installations of the FuG 350 Naxos radar detection gear to spot British bombers at night.

Kammhuber Line

A map of part of the Kammhuber Line stolen by a Belgian agent and passed-on to the British in 1942. The ‘belt’ and nightfighter ‘boxes’ are shown

The Kammhuber Line was the name given to the German night air defense system established in July 1940 by Colonel Josef Kammhuber.
The first version of the Line consisted of a series of radar stations with overlapping coverage, layered three deep from Denmark to the middle of France, each covering a zone about 32 km long (north-south) and 20 km wide (east-west). Each control centre was known as a Himmelbett zone, consisting of a Freya radar with a range of about 100 km, a “master searchlight” directed by the radar, and a number of manually directed searchlights spread through the cell. Each cell was also assigned one primary and one backup night fighter. The fighter used was usually a Dornier Do 17, Junkers Ju 88 or Messerschmitt Bf 110. This technique of Ground-controlled interception (GCI) was preceded by the use of single-engined non-radar equipped BF 109s guided-onto the attacking bombers by the illumination of searchlights, termed; Helle Nachtjagd – illuminated night fighting.
RAF bombers flying into Germany or France would have to cross the line at some point, and the Freya radar operators would direct the master searchlight to illuminate the plane. Once this had happened other manually-controlled searchlights would also pick up the plane, and the night fighters would be directed to intercept the illuminated bomber. Demands by the Bürgermeisters in Germany led to the recall of the searchlights to the major cities which undermined this system.
Later versions of the Himmelbett added two Würzburg radars, with a range of about 30 km. Unlike the early-warning Freya, Würzburg’s were accurate (and complex) tracking radars. One would be locked onto the night fighter as soon as it entered the cell and as soon as the Freya picked up a target the second Würzburg would lock onto it. All position reports were sent to the Himmelbett control centre thereby allowing controllers in the Himmelbett centre to get continual readings of the positions of both planes.
A Jägerleitoffizier would direct the German night-fighter to a visual interception with the RAF bomber using radio. Operations were manually coordinated using an “Auswertetisch” (the precursor of a “Seeburg” table).

To aid interception a number of the night fighters were fitted with a short-range infrared device known as Spanner but these proved almost useless. Later the short-range Lichtenstein radar was added to the aircraft, allowing them to detect aircraft once the operators had directed them into the area, making searchlights largely redundant.
The battle stations were known as “Kammhuber’s opera houses” and procedures developed in 1942 were used until the end of the war.


By the time the British dropped paratroopers on Bruneval, the Germans had a well-organized air defense system to protect the Reich from Allied air attacks. As mentioned, work on this network began in the summer of 1940, under the direction of Colonel Josef Kammhuber, who would rise through the ranks to major general. When Allied intelligence found out who was the mastermind behind the network, they called it the “Kammhuber Line”, and the name stuck.
When Kammhuber began his task, the tools at his disposal included the old visual observer network, sound location gear, searchlights, and two types of radars — Freya and Würzburg. The sound location gear was almost useless and quickly abandoned. Freyas could be used to direct a fighter to the vicinity of a bomber, but since Luftwaffe night fighters didn’t have AI at the outset, they were guided to the final attack using searchlights directed by Würzburgs. This was obviously a clumsy scheme and the Germans put great effort into developing an AI, discussed below.
Another problem was that the range of the Würzburg was inadequate. The solution was simple: Telefunken simply suggested that they increase the size of the Würzburg dish from 3 meters (10 feet) to 7.5 meters (24 feet 7 inches) to increase antenna gain. The rest of the radar was left generally unchanged, though the PRF was cut in half from 3,750 Hz to 1,875 Hz to adjust to the longer range.
The larger dish was tested and proved very effective, and so the “Würzburg Riese (Giant Würzburg)”, mentioned earlier, was promptly put into production. The original Würzburg antenna was a simple solid dish, but the Würzburg Riese had an unusual lattice framework structure. The dish was built by the Zeppelin company, and its construction reflected techniques used to build airships. About 1,500 Würzburg Riese radars were built, with the type going into operational service in 1941. There was also a variant of the Würzburg Riese known as the “Gustav”, an odd hybrid that had both Wuerzburg and Freya electronics, with a handful built and going into service in 1944.
The original Würzburg remained in service with anti-aircraft gun batteries. However, Telefunken felt they could improve on the design, and designed a new set, named “Mannheim”, that operated on the same 50 cm (600 MHz) band but had greater accuracy. Some late models even had automatic tracking. Mannheim went into service in mid-1943, and about 400 were built. Since the appearance of Mannheim was similar, though not identical, to Würzburg, it was often simply referred to as “Würzburg”. A handful of “Mannheim Riese” sets were built late in the war to support anti-aircraft missile research, with an oversized antenna like that of the Würzburg Riese, but the Mannheim Riese didn’t go into production.
It is unclear if the Kriegsmarine ever used either Würzburg or Mannheim. The interservice rivalries of the Reich would argue against it, but some sources claim that Würzburgs were used at coastal sites, possibly including naval installations. In any case, it does appear that the GEMA developed a gun-laying radar named “Flakleit g” for the Kriegsmarine, which was based on Seetakt and used the same 80 cm (375 MHz) band. Photographs show the Flakleit g to have some similarities to the US SCR-268 set, with a horizontally oriented and a vertically oriented antenna. It is tempting to think it used both vertical and horizontal lobe-switching to accurately track targets, but information on this radar is very hard to find and specifics are unclear.
From such beginnings, and after some trial and error to find the best procedures and tactics, the Kammhuber Line grew until in maturity it stretched in an arc from northern France, across the Low Countries, and into northern Germany, shielding the Reich from attacks from Britain. The line was divided into defensive cells, or “boxes”, each 43 kilometers wide by 34 kilometers deep (27 by 21 miles). Each box contained a Freya and two Würzburg-Riese radars. The box was known as a “Himmelbett (Four-Poster Bed)”.
The British realized that Freya was an early warning radar, and that Würzburg-Riese was used for aircraft tracking. Some British officials believed the second Würzburg-Riese was a backup, but R.V. Jones knew that the Germans couldn’t afford that level of redundancy. He guessed correctly that one Würzburg-Riese was used to track intruding Allied bomber formations, while the other was used to track Luftwaffe interceptors.
The three radars fed fortresslike command posts that were conceptually similar to British GCI stations. However, the German operators lacked PPI displays, and instead worked from staggered rows of seats in front of a huge screen with a map of the battle area. The layout resembled that of a movie theater with bleacher seats, and the command posts were called “Kammhuber-Kinos (Kammhuber’s Cinemas)” by German night fighter pilots. Operators in the lower bleacher seats shone lights on the screen to track the movements of aircraft. Blue lights meant friendly interceptors, red lights meant hostile bombers. Other operators standing behind the screen, trained in mirror writing, used marker pens to provide updates on the battle. Fighter controllers in the top seats kept the night-fighter crews up to date over radio. Smaller screens in “balconies” on either side of the “theater” provided updates for what was happening in the neighboring air-defense boxes.
Night fighters would stand by, flying orbits around a light/radio beacon, until a fighter controller got in touch with one and talked it to the vicinity of the target. The night fighter would then turn on its AI, acquire the target, and perform the attack. Although almost comically laborious by modern standards, by the standards of the time it was very ingenious. It was highly effective and a great improvement over the disjoint and primitive air-defense network that Kammhuber had at the outset.
The Kammhuber Line was continuously upgraded throughout its existence. The Würzburg-Riese was one improvement, and GEMA had also come up with two derivatives of Freya that had greater range and much better accuracy. One was named “Mammut (Mammoth)”, which essentially consisted of 16 Freyas, linked together in a giant array with 192 dipoles, 30 meters across and 10 meters high (98 by 33 feet). It was mounted on four vertical structural beams, which led British intelligence to call it “Hoarding” (British for the Yank term “Billboard”). About 20 were built, with the first going into service in 1942. Mammut was a fixed-position radar, but it used electronic steering to scan over a field of view of 100 degrees. In yet another example of the parallel nature of radar discovery, the Germans independently developed phased arrays while the Americans were working on the same technology, and in fact Mammut was the first phased-array radar to go into production. Two Mammuts were often built back-to-back to give bidirectional coverage. Mammut’s operating specifications were similar to that of Freya, with the same 2.4 meter (125 MHz) Freya band, 3 microsecond pulse width, and 500 Hz PRF. However, Mammut had a much higher peak power of 200 kW, giving it a range of about 320 kilometers (200 miles). It used horizontal lobe switching to obtain positional accuracy of about half a degree in the horizontal plane.

Mammut radar

Mammut had no real ability to determine altitude, since it was designed as a long-range warning radar to identify groups of intruders. Getting a better fix on the groups once they were detected was the business of the second derivative of Freya, named “Wassermann (Waterman)”. There were a number of different versions of Wassermann, but they all essentially amounted to eight or more Freyas mounted vertically on a steerable tower 60 meters (190 feet) high. About 150 were built, with the first going into operation in 1942.
Wassermann used electronic beam steering and lobe switching to achieve a vertical resolution of about 0.75 degree in the middle of its field of view, and a horizontal resolution of about 0.25 degree. Again, signal parameters were the same as Freya’s, except that Wassermann produced a peak power of 100kW and had a range of about 240 kilometers (150 miles). One variant, the “Wassermann S (Schwer / Heavy)”, had the array mounted around a tall cylinder, and so the British named the radar “Chimney”, applying the same name to the other variants of Wassermann.

Wasserman/Chimney radar

Both Mammut and Wassermann were excellent radars and became the backbone of the German early warning network. They proved surprisingly difficult to knock out, though eventually Allied strike fighters found that a barrage of rockets could do the job.
The Germans also operated a passive signals intercept operation, known as the “Y-Dienst (Y-Service)”, which used directional antennas and triangulation to locate Allied bomber formations from their radio emissions. The Y-Dienst had the advantage of being impossible to jam, and was an important element of the air-defense system.
Other German radars saw limited or selective service with the air-defense system. One was known as “Jagdschloss (Hunting Lodge)”, which was a wide-area radar produced by Siemens from development work conducted by GEMA. About 80 were built, with the first in service by early 1944.
Jagdschloss was used for tracking bomber formations over long ranges. The radar featured 18 dipoles mounted on a rotating horizontal structural beam 20 meters (66 meters) wide to generate a narrow radar beam in the shape of a vertical fan, with good horizontal resolution but little or no altitude determination capability. Jagdschloss operated at a slightly higher band than Freya, ranging from 2.3 meters to 1.8 meters (129 to 165 MHz); had a pulse length of a microsecond, three times better than Freya; a PRF of 500 Hz; and a peak power of 150 kW.
Jagdschloss was the first German production set with a PPI, transmitting PPI information directly to remote command headquarters over dedicated landlines, or directional 50 cm (600 MHz) radio links.
The Germans also developed an ingenious passive radar system named “Klein-Heidelberg”, probably developed by Telefunken considering the name, that was used only in coastal regions along the North Sea and English Channel. It worked by sensing Chain Home emissions, with one small antenna focused on a CH station to obtain the original radar pulse, and a larger steerable passive antenna, based on the Wassermann-S, that picked up CH reflections on bomber formations.
The time delay between the original and reflected CH signals defined an ellipse on a map, with the CH and Klein-Heidelberg stations at the focal points, that plotted the possible locations of bomber formations. The steerable antenna pinned down the actual location along the ellipse with accuracy adequate for an early-warning system. As with the Y-Dienst, it was effectively impossible to jam. It could only have worked with a floodlight radar like CH, as the Klein-Heidelberg wouldn’t pick up the output beam of a steerable or rotating radar set most of the time.
As an odd footnote to German radar development, late in the war the Germans actually introduced a radar named the “Elefant-Rüssel”, a floodlight system that was inspired by the British Chain Home longwave stations. It was built by the German Postal Authority with some help from Telefunken.
“Elefant (Elephant)” was the transmitter, sending a flood of radio energy over a 120 degree arc on the same 15 to 10 meter (20 to 30 MHz) band as CH. “Rüssel (Elephant’s Trunk)” was the receiver, which was located a kilometer away and used a steerable antenna to determine the direction of the echo. The Elefant-Rüssel was not used as part of the air-defense system. Some stations were set up on coastlines to track, inaccurately, V-2 rocket flights.
Elefant-Rüssel was not as capable as Freya. In fact, it was not as capable as Chain Home. It is difficult to figure out in hindsight what the point of it was, and the name “White Elephant” seems like it might have been more appropriate. It may have been a pet project of the Reich’s Postal Authority that nobody ever got around to killing off.
The Germans did not set up a comprehensive defense network in the East comparable to the Kammhuber Line. The Soviets were not into strategic bombing, with the primary mission of the Red Air Force being battlefield support of the troops — and the battlefront tended to shift, sometimes drastically, making investments into large fixed-site installations a poor use of resources.
The Germans adapted to the more fluid air-defense environment by being flexible. After the German advance into the USSR bogged down in late 1941, they set up a few Freyas at fixed sites, and then mounted the Himmelbett radar system on trains, shuttling them to where needed. They even mounted such a system on a cargo ship, and operated it in the Baltic beginning in early 1944 and up to the end of the war.


Early on Luftwaffe night fighters had a desperate need for an AI radar, which was finally supplied by a Telefunken-built radar named “Lichtenstein”, codenamed “Emil-Emil”.
The first Lichtenstein prototype was flying by the summer of 1941, and went into service as the “Lichtenstein B/C” in the spring of 1942. Lichtenstein B/C used an array of four cross-shaped antennas mounted on the nose of a night fighter. The radar operated at 50 cm (600 MHz), with a wide beam that provided a good field of view, a somewhat short maximum range of no more than 4 kilometers (2.5 miles), and an acceptable minimum range of 200 meters (660 feet). It used conical scanning, featuring a rotating element in the antenna electronic systems to spin the beam around. It was Carl Runge’s last contribution to the German war effort, since personal clashes eventually forced him out of Telefunken.
Lichtenstein B/C was mounted on the Luftwaffe’s primary night-fighter, the Messerschmitt Me-110 twin-engine fighter, as well as on night-fighter variants of the Junkers Ju-88 bomber. The larger and more powerful Ju-88 was a better night fighter than the Me-110, but Ju-88s were used for many roles, and there were never enough of them go around. Pilots were initially unhappy with the radar since the antenna arrays cut into the performance of their machines, but soon found out that it was far more effective than chasing after bombers illuminated by searchlights.

Lichtenstein B/C radar on Ju-88

RAF listening posts heard references between fighters and ground controllers about Emil-Emil, though they didn’t know what it was. After an electronic intelligence station in Britain picked up a signal from what seemed to be a German AI, a Vickers Wellington bomber was fitted with a receiver set to the appropriate frequency range and sent over Germany on a ferret mission in early December 1942. The mission worked a little too well, since the bomber was chewed up by a Ju-88 night fighter and almost didn’t make it back home.

Dornier 17

The Allies actually got their hands on a complete Lichtenstein B/C set on 9 May 1943, when a Ju-88 night fighter landed in Scotland, the crew having decided to defect. However, by this time, it was on the threshold of becoming old news. The Germans were working on an improved version of Lichtenstein, the “SN-2”, which provided greater range than Lichtenstein B/C.
The range increase was to be obtained by going to longer wavelengths, which turned out to be in the range of 4.1 to 3.7 meters (73.2 to 81.1 MHz), which were easier to generate at higher power levels. It also produced a wider beam, making it easier to spot intruders. This had been the crippling flaw of British longwave AI radars, since a wide beam led to too much ground clutter at low altitudes to be useful, but since RAF night bombers generally operated at high altitudes, the wide beam was a benefit to the Luftwaffe. As an unintended benefit, the new band also successfully camouflaged the new Lichtenstein from the Allies for several months, since the lower frequencies were in the Freya band and Allied ferrets didn’t realize that something else was there.

Lichtenstein SN-2 radar on Bf-110

Development of a radar-based air-defense network led the Germans to the problem of IFF, just as it had the British, and IFF proved even more troublesome for the Germans. An effective IFF system depends on standardization, and since the Nazi leadership’s technology policies were inconsistent and scatterbrained, IFF suffered accordingly.
At first, the Luftwaffe used a modified version of the Y-Geraet blind bombing system known as “Y-Verfahren” for fighter direction. The return signal that gave range though phase shift was transmitted for 20 seconds out of every minute by the aircraft’s radio, an idea consciously lifted from the British Pip Squeak scheme. Y-Verfahren basically put the burden of IFF on the ground station, but had the advantages of giving the range to the fighter. It also provided a navigation beam to get the night fighter back home in the dark and foul weather, a task which could be as dangerous as taking on an armed bomber.
However, like Pip Squeak, Y-Verfahren suffered from the fact that it was difficult to integrate with the radar network, and so the Germans worked in parallel on two more sophisticated IFF schemes:
GEMA had proposed an IFF named “Erstling (Firstborn)” in late 1938, with the Luftwaffe ordering several thousand about a year later. Erstling responded to Freya signals at 2.4 meters (125 MHz).
Telefunken was working on their own IFF by that time, which the German Air Ministry ordered into production in early 1941 as “Zwilling (Twin)”. Zwilling responded to Würzburg signals at 50 cm (600 MHz).
It is difficult to say that these were competing efforts so much as they were mutually indifferent. Wolfgang Martini protested the notion of fielding two different IFF systems, each of which only gave half the solution. In fact, Zwilling wasn’t even half the solution, since it proved unworkable in practice. Thousands were built, but many of them ended up being cannibalized for parts to build Erstlings. An improved “Zwilling J1” was built, but the better solution was to make Erstling compatible with Würzburg, or as it worked out, make Würzburg compatible with Erstling by the straightforward measure of tacking a 2.4 meter (125 MHz) interrogation system onto a Würzburg dish. The interrogator was named “Kuckuck (Cuckoo)”, with the scheme first introduced in the summer of 1942.
German IFF still didn’t get fully on track. The Allies were quick to figure out ways to interfere with it, and German pilots feared, correctly, that the enemy would also develop devices to home in on it. The Germans never even developed an IFF interrogator that could be carried on an aircraft, which hobbled the night-fighter crews. German engineers continued to work on IFF through the rest of the war, but never fielded an effective system.
The Germans also built an ASV radar, named “Hohentweil”. It was designed by the Lorenz company, which hadn’t given up on radar after losing the gun-laying radar contract to Telefunken’s Würzburg. Hohentweil operated at a wavelength of 50 cm (600 MHz), and featured various arrangements of cluttered dipole arrays, mounted on the nose of an ocean patrol aircraft, such as the Focke-Wulf FW-200 Kondor or the Junkers Ju-188. Hohentweil was an excellent set. It could spot a merchantman at a range of 80 kilometers (50 miles) and could pick up a submarine periscope at six kilometers (3.75 miles). Like the British ASV.II, it could perform searches by scanning to the sides, and then pinpoint a target in the forward direction using lobe switching. A version of Hohentweil was built for U-boats as well, but by the time it was available U-boat crews were so jumpy and intimidated that they didn’t want to use it, since they feared that the Allies might home in on it.


Hamburg aftermath

By March 1942, the Kammhuber Line was beginning to seriously bloody the night raiders. R.V. Jones knew that disrupting German radars would blind the Kammhuber Line, and he knew just how to do it. As far back as 1937, he had suggested that a piece of metal foil falling through the air might create radar echoes. In early 1942, a TRE researcher named Joan Curran, the only woman among the boffins, had investigated the idea and come up with a scheme for dumping packets of aluminum strips from aircraft to generate a cloud of false echoes. The strips were to be cut to a half wavelength of the operating frequency of the radar to be jammed, though later quarter-wavelength strips were used as well. Tests against centimetric AI.VII and AI.VIII radar showed it to be highly effective. The scheme was codenamed “Window”.
Although R.V. Jones wanted to use Window right away, he was overruled. Lord Cherwell, Watson-Watt, and RAF Fighter Command opposed the use of Window, since they believed that once Window was used, the Germans would immediately learn the trick and use it on raids over the British Isles in turn.
In reality, the trick was much too obvious. Like so many other inventions in the Wizard War, the British hadn’t been the only ones to think of it. The Germans also performed tests in 1942 on using foil strips to jam radar, calling the scheme “Düppel”. German leadership proved every bit as nervous about the idea as their British counterparts. When Hermann Goering heard about the tests, he ordered them to be stopped immediately and reports on the experiment suppressed. Goering had greater reason for fear than the British: by this time, Allied offensive bombing capabilities clearly outstripped the German ability to retaliate in kind, and in fact the imbalance would only get worse. Düppel clearly would hurt the Reich far more than it would hurt the British.
The British used other countermeasures and kept Window in reserve. One of the simplest countermeasures was to simply increase the size of the attacking formations, up to the size of the “thousand bomber raids” conducted by Bomber Command beginning in May 1942. This overwhelmed the defenses, providing far more targets than a Himmelbett cell could tackle. However, it also created a “target rich environment”, and Luftwaffe night-fighter pilots eventually adjusted by simply having ground control direct them into the bomber stream, where they hunted targets on their own. The tactic was known as “Zahme Sau (Tame Boar)”, and as it placed more load on a night fighter’s AI system, it led to the effort to develop the improved Lichtenstein SN-2 AI. Kammhuber protested the use of Zahme Sau, insisting that he could compensate if given more resources, but he was ignored.
Simple numbers were not a very good defense against the Luftwaffe. In the summer of 1942, the RAF introduced a broadband radar jamming system named “Mandrel”, designed by Robert Cockburn’s countermeasures group at the TRE, that blinded Freya, Wassermann, and Mammut early-warning radars by throwing out radio noise on the Freya band. Mandrel was originally installed on fighters that escorted bomber formations to their targets. When Mandrel was installed on RAF bombers beginning in December 1942, RAF bomber losses fell substantially.
The Germans adapted by retuning some Freya systems from 2.4 meters (125 MHz) to 2.78 meters (107.9 MHz). The British responded in turn by modifying Mandrel to cover both frequencies, and the race between radar and jammer was on, with the British developing many variants of Mandrel.
The British also developed a jammer named “Shiver” to disrupt Würzburg, though Würzburg’s tight beam made this a much more difficult task, leading to an improved jammer named “Carpet” that could be tuned to various frequencies in the Wuerzburg band. While jamming had generally been done to that time using sine-wave signals, Cockburn had concluded that using random “white noise” signals was a much better option. It was much harder to compensate for, and it could be misinterpreted by victims as a defect in their own gear or natural interference.
White noise generators were improvised from what was available. Gas-filled tubes that ionized at specific voltages were used in voltage regulators at the time, and it turned out that they produced a nice noisy output if filter capacitors were removed. Photomultiplier tubes, normally used to amplify faint light signals, also produced a noisy “dark current”. Both these devices were used as noise generators until purpose-built gas tubes were introduced.
A formation of 20 bombers, each with a Carpet  jammer, could blind Würzburgs and Mannheims. Unfortunately, a bomber that radiated a continuous jamming signal also announced its presence to enemy fighters. The British came up with a new, more intelligent jammer system named “Carpet II”, which was able to scan through the Würzburg frequency range, identify a frequency in use, jam it for 30 seconds, and then move on. The jammer did not stay on frequency long enough to allow a fighter to home in on it, and with enough bombers, jamming coverage was effectively continuous. The concept of jumping frequencies, known as “frequency agility”, would became more important in the following decades.

The effect of "window" upon a Giant Wuerzburg display screen

Still another jammer, “Airborne Grocer”, was developed to jam Lichtenstein 50 cm (600 MHz) transmissions. They also designed a “Ground Grocer” counterpart, but it operated from long range and simply didn’t have the power to be effective.
Jamming radars by dumping noise into them was a crude trick. A more elegant approach was to deceive or “spoof” them, or trick them into seeing things that weren’t really there. Like many of the weapons of the Wizard War, spoofing was more or less invented by accident. In July 1941, British technicians were calibrating a Chain Home radar when an aircraft transmitted Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) signals into the radar at relatively high power by accident. To the technicians, the aircraft looked like a large number of fighters approaching, and the British realized that such a technique might be used to confuse German Freya radars.
Cockburn’s team developed a device named “Moonshine” to spoof Freya, and tests in March 1942 against Chain Home stations demonstrated its effectiveness. Moonshine was a “pulse repeater”. It listened for a pulse from a radar transmitter, and then fired back a spread-out pulse on the same frequency that fooled the radar receiver into “seeing” a reflection that appeared to be from a huge formation of bombers.
Moonshine transmitters were installed in twenty obsolescent Boulton-Paul Defiant two-seat fighters beginning in the spring of 1942. Moonshine went into operation that summer, with the Defiants providing a diversion for the USAAF’s first raid on Europe, against Rouen, France, on 17 August. Moonshine proved valuable at first, but it was only used for a few months since the Germans gradually got wise to it and recognized the spoofing for what it was. It was then set aside to be used on special occasions when the Germans weren’t expecting it.
The British also attempted to jam or spoof communications channels between night fighter and their ground controllers. In December 1942, along with Mandrel, the British introduced a radio jammer named “Tinsel”, which used microphones placed in the engine nacelles of a bomber to broadcast loud audio noise over Luftwaffe communications links.
Improved radio jamming systems were introduced in 1943. “Ground Cigar” went into operation in July, followed by “Airborne Cigar” in August, and then “Corona” in October. Corona was a full-fledged spoofing operation, with German-speaking British “controllers” breaking in on German ground-controller channels and trying to confuse night fighter pilots. At first, the British “controllers” were given away by obvious accents, but they refined their skills, and there were occasions where Luftwaffe pilots sat through arguments between two controllers, each insisting that he or she was the German and that the other was the Briton.
The RAF also configured aircraft as dedicated electronics warfare aircraft. Boeing B-17G Flying Fortresses, known in RAF service as Fortress IIIs, were configured with H2S, jammers, and warning systems and used to protect bomber streams.
British intelligence soon discovered the nature of the Kammhuber Line and started studying ways to defeat it. At the time RAF Bomber Command sent in their planes one at a time to force the defenses to be spread as far apart as possible, meaning that any one aircraft would have to deal with little concentrated flak. This also meant the Himmelbett centres were only dealing with perhaps one or two planes at a time, making their job much easier.
At the urging of R.V. Jones, Bomber Command reorganized their attacks into streams of bombers, carefully positioned so the stream would fly down the middle of a cell. Data provided to the British scientists allowed them to calculate that the bomber stream would overwhelm the six potential interceptions per hour that the German “Tame Boar” (Zahme Sau) night fighters could manage in a Himmelbett zone. It was then a matter of calculating the statistical loss from collisions against the statistical loss from night fighters to calculate how close the bombers should fly to minimise RAF losses. The introduction of Gee allowed the RAF bombers to fly by a common route and at the same speed to and from the target, each aircraft being allotted a height band and a time slot in a bomber stream to minimize the risk of collision. The first use of the bomber stream was the first 1,000 bomber raid against Cologne on the night of 30/31 May 1942. This tactic was extremely effective, leading to fighting between Kammhuber and Erhard Milch, his boss.

A Lancaster within the bomber stream dropping chaff – the crescent-shaped white cloud on the left of the picture

Dresden in 1945

Although the success rate of the Line dropped, the network of radars and plotting stations continued to prove their worth. Now when a raid started, night fighters from any base within range would be directed into the stream, where it was hoped they would be able to find aircraft with their radar. At the same time a massive building program started to add hundreds of Würzburgs to the system, although the infrastructure needed was extensive. The boxes were initially the radius of the Würzburg radars, about 22 miles but more powerful radar later on made the boxes up to 100 miles across. Eventually, the line of boxes would be several deep, especially around larger towns and the Ruhr valley. Once again the system started to score increasing successes against the British raids.

The British were ready for this development and as soon as the rates started to improve – for the Germans – they added ‘windowing’ cover. By dropping chaff from a number of “lead” bombers, the German radar operators saw what appeared to be a stream entering their box, each packet of chaff appearing to be a bomber on their displays. Night fighters would then be sent to attack this stream, only to find empty space. Just as the fighters reached the chaff stream, the “real” stream would appear hundreds of miles away, too far to be attacked. The first time this was used was during the firestorm attack on Hamburg, (Operation Gomorrah) and proved spectacularly effective. The German radar operators eventually learned to spot the lead bombers at the edge of the windowing, making it less effective.
A lesser-known fact is that the Luftwaffe used this technology just six weeks after the above-mentioned Hamburg raid. The German strips were cut into 80 centimetre by 1.9 centimetre lengths and first dropped during a raid on 7-8 October 1943. In a series of raids in 1943, and the ‘mini-blitz’ of Operation Steinbock between February and May 1944, Düppel allowed German bombers to once again attempt to operate over London. Although theoretically effective, the small number of bombers, notably in relation to the RAF’s now-large night fighter force, doomed the effort from the start. The British fighters were able to go aloft in large numbers and often found the German bombers in spite of their Düppel.

B-24 bomb strike on a German Rail yard


For a time after the introduction of Window, RAF Bomber Command conducted night raids over Germany with relative impunity. Field Marshal Erhard Milch, in charge of German aircraft procurement, commented: “I am beginning to think that we are sitting on a limb, and the British are sawing that limb off.”
Hermann Goering was disgusted. “In the field of radar they must have the world’s greatest genius. They have the geniuses and we have the nincompoops … The British would have never dared use the metal foil here if they had not worked out 100% what the antidote it. I hate the rogues like the plague, but in one respect I’m obliged to take off my cap to them. After the war’s over, I’m going to buy myself a British radio set, as a token of my regard for their high-frequency work.”
Goering’s comments about Germany’s radar “nincompoops” were revealing, since it was something of a self-fulfilling judgement. Allied leadership clearly gave greater priority and respect to their technical resources than their German counterparts, who seemed to regard their own boffins as a resource that would provide miracles spontaneously, to be browbeaten when they failed. In fact, many of their radars were ingenious, well-designed, and highly capable given the limitations of longwave systems. In one of the many illuminating ironies of the story, most German microwave work had been cancelled by the authorities just before the capture of the Rotterdam Geraet earlier in the year.
Goering was also dead wrong about the British having countermeasures against Window. The only actual countermeasure they had was the fact that they and the Americans had large numbers of heavy long-range bombers and the Germans did not, making the use of Window a good gamble.
The Germans would in fact use Düppel themselves, beginning in October 1943 and particularly during the “Baby Blitz” on England in January 1944, but Luftwaffe bomber formations were too small to achieve the densities of Düppel needed to be effective. The British decision to open the Window proved completely justified by later events.
On reading a report about the Rotterdam Geraet, Goering later commented: “We must admit that in this sphere, the British and Americans are far ahead of us. I expected them to be advanced, but frankly I never expected them to get so far ahead. I did hope that even if we were behind, we could at least be in the same race!” Kammhuber, who had antagonized his superiors with his single-minded focus on his own agenda as the ultimate priority of all activities of the Reich, would be fired in mid-September after several failures to adequately deal with RAF raids, with General Josef “Beppo” Schmid taking his place as commander of night defense operations.
By late spring 1943, the RAF and USAAF were dumping hundreds of tonnes of Window a month, but the Germans were beginning to recover. They would never defeat it completely, but they were gradually able to take back some ground they had lost. In fact, RAF night bomber losses continued at a high rate, which leads to the ugly question of just how bad they would have been if the Allies hadn’t developed countermeasures.

The German defense was particularly assisted by a stroke of luck. By coincidence, the improved Lichtenstein SN-2 radar began to go into service in July 1943, at about the same time that the Allies started using Window. SN-2 turned out to be the right thing at the right time, since at the time the Allies were using Window cut to lengths appropriate to shorter wavelengths, and the SN-2 could cut through the interference. Although the British were jamming Freyas and other early-warning radars, ground controllers could still use the unjammable Y-Dienst direction-finding system to direct night fighters into bomber streams, where they could use SN-2 to hunt down targets. The weak link in the Zahme Sau scheme was the ground controller communications channel, and so the Allies stepped up their efforts to jam or spoof the communications.
SN-2 was sometimes fitted to night fighters along with the older Lichtenstein B/C sets, which provided higher resolution when jamming could be overcome. In the late stages of the war, the Germans would also deploy an improved longwave AI named “Neptun”, derived from a simple tail warning radar of the same name, and which apparently was originally designed as an ASV. The Neptun AI operated over a relatively wide range of frequencies and had a maximum range of up to five kilometers (three miles) and a minimum range of a hundred meters (330 feet), but it was too little and too late.
The Luftwaffe also used another tactic to complement Zahme Sau, known as “Wilde Sau (Wild Sow)”, in which Luftwaffe day fighters conducted night attacks using the flames of the burning cities to spotlight Allied bombers. Wilde Sau proved effective, but day fighters, not having been designed for night operations, suffered from landing accidents and a simple, dangerous tendency to get lost at night.
Some of the German countermeasures were clever. The Germans built a system named “Flammen (Flames)”, that could home in on IFF Mark III signals, a trick that was helped along by the fact that some RAF crews superstitiously thought that their IFF could jam Wuerzburg and so left it on all the time. RAF losses climbed until December, until the Allies got wise to the trick and ordered pilots to turn off their IFF over hostile territory. In turn, the British would hunt Luftwaffe bombers using German IFF during the Baby Blitz. Similarly, when the RAF deployed a tail warning radar named “Monica” on their bombers in June 1943 as a means of warning the pilot that an attacker was on his tail, the Germans quickly invented a device named “Flensburg” to home in on Monica emissions. This was particularly ironic, since Monica had been so prone to false alarms due to other bombers in the stream that it was of little use in the first place.
While the Germans tried to deal with Allied countermeasures, they were also working on centimetric radar, using the Rotterdam-Geraet they had captured early in 1943. They had quickly determined that the device operated at centimetric wavelengths, and Professor Leo Brandt of Telefunken was assigned to reverse-engineer the device. The Telefunken factory in Berlin was bombed on 1 March 1943 and the device was destroyed, but that same night a Halifax bomber was shot down over the Netherlands, providing a replacement. This time, the device was taken to a flak tower, one of the huge reinforced concrete “castles” used to protect anti-aircraft batteries.
As it turned out, the Germans did not have time to deploy centimetric radar themselves. They were so desperate for components that the wreckage of Allied bombers was scavenged for magnetron parts. 25 “Berlin” 10 cm (3 GHz) AI sets were built late in the war, but only a few were ever fitted to night fighters and they saw little or no action. The improved “Bremen” variant never got beyond a single prototype. A microwave ground-based search radar named “Marbach” was developed and saw some use near the end of the war. Marbach had a peak power of 20 kW, a pulse period of 0.6 microseconds, a PRF of 500 hertz, and a maximum range of about 50 kilometers (31 miles). A targeting radar named “Kulmbach”, with similar specifications but a tighter beam and half the range, was also built. The two radars were linked to form the “Egerland” fire-control system, but only two Egerlands were built before Germany’s surrender.
However, the Germans were able to develop effective countermeasures against centimetric radar, and in fact the Germans were so focused on countermeasures that radar development was necessarily a lower priority. Telefunken built a simple detector named “Naxos” that could pick up 10 cm (3 GHz) H2S transmissions, and a more sophisticated detector named “Korfu” with greater range and accuracy. Korfu saw little use, but Naxos saw widespread service.
There were two different types of Naxos. “Naxos Z” was developed for night fighters and mounted in a blister on top of the fighter’s canopy. It could detect an RAF bomber from much longer range than Flensburg Monica-homing system. Another version of Naxos, “Naxos U”, was provided to U-boats to allow them to detect 10 cm (3 GHz ASV), though by that time the U-boats were entirely on the defensive and it did them only a little good. Naxos was further hobbled by the fact that it proved very fragile in field conditions, and working out the bugs ended up being troublesome.
Although the kind of technical improvisation by the bottom ranks that in particular characterized the US military was not encouraged by the strictly hierarchical German military, it did happen. A captain and a sergeant in the air-defense system came up with the bright idea of hooking up a Naxos to a Würzburg dish system, resulting in “Naxburg”. Naxburg had a directional accuracy of about 1 degree and range limited only by line of sight. It became an important addition to the Y-Dienst signals intelligence network.
The British continued to develop countermeasures of their own. RAF bombers were equipped with primitive “passive” radar-warning receivers to warn them they were being hunted by night fighters. The first was “Boozer”, introduced in 1943, which used a tail-mounted antenna to pick up Lichtenstein transmissions and turn on a warning light to alert a bomber pilot. Boozer did not generate emissions to give away the bomber, but it was also not very discriminating and gave continuous false alarms. Bomber crews soon learned to turn it off and ignore it.
They also fought back directly. The RAF equipped Mosquito night intruders with a device called “Serrate” to allow them to track down German night fighters from their Lichtenstein B/C and SN-2 radar emissions, and also fitted Mosquitoes with a device named “Perfectos” that tracked German IFF. The secrets of Lichtenstein SN-2 and German IFF had been dropped into the hands of the Allies in July 1944, when the pilot of a Ju-88 night fighter flew the wrong way against a landing beacon and landed in the UK by accident.
Countermeasures led to more countermeasures. The Germans built a tail-warning version of Naxos, known as “Naxos ZR”, to warn their night fighters that they were being tracked by centimetric radar. The Luftwaffe went to great lengths to hunt down the hated Mosquitoes, though with limited success. With the Reich crumbling, the Germans were increasingly unable to even find fuel to keep their fighters flying.
As the Luftwaffe began to run out of steam, the Germans relied more and more heavily on anti-aircraft artillery to defend the Reich. This led to an Allied emphasis on jamming Würzburg and Mannheim gun-laying radars, and a German emphasis on developing counter-countermeasures. The contest went on to the end of the war.
The Germans managed to overcome Carpet jamming by providing Würzburg and Mannheim with a second band in the fall of 1943. The new band was centered around 58 cm (520 MHz), in contrast to the original band of 54 cm (560 MHz). A year later, they added a third band, around 66 cm (455 MHz). An adapter named “Wismar” was introduced in the summer of 1944 to allow rapid switching between bands.
Of course, as mentioned, the Allies improved the jammers to cover the new bands. Eventually, SIGINT receivers were carried on some bombers to determine enemy radar operating frequencies so the jamming could be focused on those bands for maximum effectiveness. Electronic warfare specialists, or “Ravens”, became an essential member of the bomber force crew.
The Germans tried more sophisticated counter-countermeasures as well. They devised an enhancement to Würzburg called “Würzlaus” that was introduced in the fall of 1943. Würzlaus could perform a limited amount of discrimination of targets on the basis of their motion. Moving objects caused a frequency shift, or “Doppler shift”, in the radar waves reflected off them, and this frequency shift could be measured to sort out drifting Window clouds from the bombers that dumped them. The “laus” suffix was derived from the German word for “louse”, and so the name basically meant “Würzburg delouser”. Würzlaus was an early attempt at what would become “Doppler radar” after the war.
The Germans introduced two other enhancements at the same time, named “Nürnburg” and “Taunus”. Nürnburg tried to sort out radar reflections that had an audio-frequency component, due to the engine vibrations of the target. Taunus was similar to one of the counter-countermeasures schemes developed for Chain Home, a filtering scheme that emphasized persistent targets (targets) and deemphasized transient ones (jamming). Yet another counter-countermeasures scheme, “Stendal”, tried to zero in on the jammer itself to target the carrier aircraft. Stendal turned out to be too inaccurate to be useful.

B-24 bomb strike on a German Rail yard

The Germans tried to improve on and combine these techniques, developing a scheme named “K-laus” near the end of the war that combined Doppler measurements with filtering, taking a bigger step towards Doppler radar. However, in general, the German counter-countermeasures were not very effective. In those days, radar operation was an art form, since radars effectively returned unprocessed data that a skilled operator had to interpret, picking out signals from the noise. Jamming only made matters worse. The German counter-countermeasures required very skilled operators to make good use of them, but the skill level of their operators was never very high on the average, and was degrading as more and more manpower was drained away to the front to hold back defeat.
Even when their radar was blinded, the anti-aircraft batteries generally kept up a heavy rate of fire, focused on the best guess for where the intruding formation was, and actually scored enough kills to make Allied countermeasures officers wonder if the countermeasures were actually working. Such “predicted barrages” also helped reassure the local population by at least giving the sound of putting up a strong defense. However, predicted barrages wasted enormous amounts of ammunition. During a raid through overcast by 720 USAAF bombers on Hamburg on 25 October 1944, the Germans fired over 24,400 rounds of heavy anti-aircraft ammunition, and shot down one bomber. Shortly after that, faced with using up ammunition faster than it could be manufactured, the practice was restricted to defense of high-priority installations. Bomber losses to flak then fell by 75%.


Over in the US, in December 1941, not long after Pearl Harbor, the push came down from the top to establish a countermeasures group named the “NDRC Division 15” or the “Radiation Research Laboratory (RRL). The RRL originally existed as an office in the Rad Lab. Its objectives were to develop countermeasures systems; help improve the resistance of US radars and other electronic systems to enemy countermeasures; and develop signals intelligence systems to monitor enemy radars and other electronic systems.
Luis Alvarez was offered the job of running the RRL, but he had other commitments and didn’t feel up to a major management job anyway. On his recommendation, the RRL was given to Frederick Terman, previously head of Stanford’s Electrical Engineering department.
The RRL was originally set up as an office at the Rad Lab. There were some tension between the RRL and the rest of the Rad Lab. A few of the Rad Lab engineers reacted emotionally when RRL engineers pointed out vulnerabilities in Rad Lab radars, the Rad Lab people feeling that the RRL was making life unnecessarily harder for them. Cooler heads pointed out that the enemy would certainly implement all the countermeasures they could think up and it was important to stay a step ahead; the message was accepted, if grudgingly.
However, the RRL quickly grew large and was soon, as planned, spun off as an independent organization, sited at Harvard University. Terman ran the RRL under an interesting arrangement where the research staff was basically on loan from their normal employers, who were still responsible for pay and benefits. The government reimbursed the companies for their expenses. This scheme allowed the workers to acquire seniority with their normal employers while they were working at RRL.
The RRL also had to spend considerable effort to make sure their most unreplaceable staff wasn’t snatched up by the draft board and put in the ranks, with the RRL in some cases sending their people overseas on field investigations to get them out of reach. The NRL and Signal Corps didn’t have this problem, since any of their people were targeted by the draft, they could be simply enlisted and come into work in uniforms instead of civilian clothes.
In April 1942, Terman went to the UK for six weeks to visit with Cockburn and his group at the TRE. The two men got along very well, and Terman was impressed by the skills of his British hosts. Cockburn visited the US in October 1942, of course including RRL in his list of places to visit, and was impressed in turn. The cooperation between the TRE and RRL remained good through the conflict. The RRL established an “American-British Laboratory of Division 15”, or just “ABL-15”, at the TRE site in Malvern to ensure that the two groups worked closely together. ABL-15 eventually grew to be as big as the TRE itself, with the joint lab focusing on immediate operational issues while the TRE conducted more fundamental research.

Not all of the collaborations worked well. In response to the limitations of the British Ground Grocer Lichtenstein B/C jammer, the RRL developed a monster ground-based jammer named “Tuba”, with an oversized horn antenna and a small fleet of support trucks. Tuba could light up fluorescent bulbs a mile away, and flammable things accidentally placed in the output path quickly caught on fire. It was superficially impressive but in practice never very effective, proving a nuisance to German night-fighters that were just across the Channel but causing no real bother otherwise.
Some other RRL projects worked much better. The RRL built their own designs of the Mandrel Freya jammer, known as “AN/APT-3” for airborne use and “AN/SPT-3” for shipboard use, and the Carpet Wuerzburg jammer, known as “AN/APT-2” or “AN/SPT-2”. As with the British, the RRL built improved versions of Carpet, and also built a number of other jammers, including “Dina”, “Rug”, and “Broadloom” to cover the spectrum of enemy radars.
The USAAF resisted the introduction of the Carpet for a time, since their initial bombing policy was for daylight, clear-weather strikes where radar jamming of Wuerzburg was of little use, but RRL managed to convince the service to adopt it anyway. The wisdom of this would become obvious once the USAAF began to use H2X to bomb on overcast days.
Late in the war, RRL also introduced a communications jammer, the “AN/ART-3 Jackal”, which was used to disrupt German tank radios. It was used in support of Allied counterthrusts against German armor during the Battle of the Bulge in late 1944 and early 1945. RRL also developed microwave radar jammers, but as will be discussed the enemy never got any microwave radars into real operation.
Ironically, even before the RRL had built any jammers, the USAAF had been jamming German radars without trying. The SCR-522 VHF radios carried on USAAF bombers happened to be on the same band as the Freya and could jam the radar when the radios were set to certain channels. The Germans realized this in early 1943, which suggested to them the possibility that they could use their own radios to jam Allied radars, but as it turned out no Allied radars were on the same band. The USAAF was slow to realize that the SCR-522 was jamming the Freya — but if the SCR-522 jammed the Freya, that meant that Freya was also jamming the SCR-522, and aircrews returning from missions over Europe complained of severe interference on certain radio channels. The problem was eventually traced to Freya, and RRL engineers designed fixes for the problem.
The Germans developed their own longwave jamming gear to blind Allied radars, including the powerful ground-based “Karl” jammer and much less powerful “Kettenhund” jammer, which was carried by bombers. They proved effective in disrupting SCR-268 longwave fire-control radars, leading to hasty efforts by the RRL to modify the SCR-268s to cut through the jamming. However, the German jammers were totally useless against microwave radars.
Signals intelligence gear was also part of the RRL’s charter. The Americans, or at least the US firms Halicrafters and General Radio Company (GRC), seemed to have acquired a particular skill at making radio receivers before the war, and during the conflict these receivers formed the basis for an ever-expanding range of Allied SIGINT gear. The British used the Halicrafters S-27 to pick up Seetakt and Freya emissions in early 1941, and the S-27 would be widely used by the Allies through the rest of the war.
The S-27 was a good piece of gear, but something more purpose-designed was needed. Luis Alvarez, always with a bright idea for somebody else to develop, enlisted an RRL engineer, a Canadian named Dr. Don Sinclair, to work with GRC to work between the RRL and GRC to modify the company’s “P-540” receiver into the US Army “SCR-587” and US Navy “ARC-1” SIGINT receiver, built by Philco.
The SCR-587 provided a bandwidth from 3 meters to 30 centimeters (100 MHz to 1 GHz) and was a valuable tool through the entire war. Don Sinclair would perform valuable work for the RRL in the lab and the field through the war. After the war, he would go to work for General Radio and eventually become company president.
The NRL also built small numbers of a SIGINT receiver, the “XARD”, that operated over the band from 6 meters to 30 centimeters (50 MHz to 1 GHz). It was a crude piece of gear, with tuning performed by adjusting the antenna, a tiresome scheme when the operator was searching back and forth over the band for possible “emitters”. It was also not very reliable, but it was one of the first US-built SIGINT receivers to be put into action, being taken on submarine patrols in the fall of 1942.
The SCR-587 was a much better piece of gear than the XARD, but even the SCR-587 had to be manually dialed over its band, which was tiresome and error-prone. The answer was to automate the process, allowing the receiver to automatically scan through its band.
The requirement was passed on to Peter Goldmark, an RRL engineer who had been borrowed from CBS. After the war, he would develop an alternative color TV system that didn’t prove successful but gave TV rival RCA fits, and more successfully developed the 33 1/3 RPM long-playing (LP) phonograph record — a universal technology until it was abruptly replaced by CD technology. His scanning receiver, the “AN/APR-2”, operated over the same band as the SCR-587. It could be set to scan over its bandwidth at different rates, using a neon indicator to show the frequencies where a signal was detected, and recording up to eight hours of monitoring on an electrochemical tape.

AN/APR-2 SIGINT receiver

The AN/APR-2 was a complicated piece of gear, and development proved troublesome. Goldmark was not very amused when one of his colleagues suggested that they drop a prototype on Japan, so that the enemy would struggle in vain for the rest of the war trying to get it to work. However, the RRL did manage to get it into service.


Hidetsugu Yagi

At the end of 1941, the Japanese began a wide-ranging offensive that swept through the colonial possessions of the British, Americans, and Dutch in the western Pacific, reaching as far southeast as the north coast of New Guinea to threaten Australia. Among the benefits of this spectacular wave of conquest was the fact that the Japanese obtained a number of British GL-type sets in Singapore, as well as a US SCR-268 set and a damaged US SCR-270 set on Corregidor.
The IJA put a modified version of the GL into production as the “IJA Tachi 3”. It operated on a band around 3.75 meters (80 MHz), had a pulse width of one to two microseconds, a peak power of 50 kW, a PRF of 1,000 or 2,000 Hz, and a maximum range of about 40 kilometers (25 miles). About 150 were built by Sumitomo, with the type going into service in early 1944. The Tachi 3 set was the first Japanese set to incorporate Yagi antennas, which was a great irony, since such antennas were the invention of Hidetsugu Yagi, a Japanese electronics researcher of global stature. To add to the irony, Dr. Yagi had been involved in the development of the IJA Type A interference detector.
On their part, the IJN recognized the SCR-268 as a good piece of gear and put a derivative of it into production as the “IJN Mark IV Model 1”. It operated in a band around 1.5 meters (200 MHz), had a pulse width of 3 microseconds, a peak power of 30 kW, a PRF of 2,000 Hz. and a maximum range of about 48 kilometers (30 miles). It was followed by the improved “IJN Mark IV Model 2”, which had basically the same general specifications except that the PRF was reduced to 1,000 Hz. The Japanese built a few hundred of these radars in all.
The IJA also tried to build derivatives of the SCR-268 in the form of the “IJA Tachi 1”, “IJA Tachi 2”, and “IJA Tachi 4”, all operating on the 1.5 meter (200 MHz) band used by the SCR-268, but these radars did not prove satisfactory and were only built in small numbers. Late in the war, the IJA did introduce a much more workable derivative of the Tachi 4, the “IJA Tachi 31”, also operating at 1.5 meters (200 MHz), with 70 built.
In the meantime, both the IJN and IJA fielded derivatives of their earlier fixed-site radars. The IJN Mark I Model 1 was followed in 1942 by about 300 of a lighter transportable 1.5 meter (200 MHz) version, the “IJN Mark I Model 2”, and then in 1943 about 1,500 of an even lighter portable version, the 2 meter (150 MHz) “IJN Mark I Model 3”.
As if in parallel lockstep, the IJA followed their Tachi 6 in 1943 with about 60 transportable 3 meter (100 MHz) “IJA Tachi 7” sets, and in 1944 followed that with about 400 portable “IJA Tachi 18” sets, operating in the same band.
Other than being lighter, these radars were no great advance over their predecessors, being roughly comparable to the British MRU. However, since the Japanese had developed their own magnetron, in fact well ahead of the Allies, they also developed their own 10 cm (3 GHz) microwave set for naval warfare. The “IJN Mark II Model 2” radar was introduced in 1942, and was well-received by naval crews as a great step ahead of the unsatisfactory longwave Mark II Model 1. About 400 were built and deployed on a range of vessels.
The Mark II Model 2 had a peak power of 2 kW, a pulse width of 2 to 10 microseconds, a PRF of 2,500 Hz, and a range of about 35 kilometers (22 miles) against a large naval surface target. It had separate cone-shaped transmit and receive antennas, giving it the odd appearance of giant toy binoculars. It did not have a PPI, no operational Japanese set ever did, which greatly limited its usefulness for naval operations.
The Japanese also developed a lightweight longwave set, the “IJN Mark II Model 4”, operating at 1.5 meters (200 MHz), for use on small vessels and submarines. It is unclear if it saw much service.
During the first months of the US war against Japan, the Americans were so overwhelmed that worrying about Japanese radar capabilities didn’t even make the list. The issue didn’t bob to the surface until the US Marines landed on Guadalcanal in the Solomon Islands on 7 August 1942. The landings were not heavily opposed — a situation that gave a completely misleading impression of what to expect in the future — and the Marines quickly captured an IJN Type I Model 1 radar. The catch came as a surprise, apparently less because anyone thought the Japanese didn’t have radar than because few had given the matter much thought. The Japanese radar was dismantled and shipped stateside. NRL researchers found it crude, even in comparison with early American radars such as the SCR-270 and CXAM.

Consolidated B-24 Liberator

SIGINT receivers were quickly installed on submarines and aircraft to hunt for more Japanese radars. A Consolidated B-24 Liberator ferret that had been fitted with various SIGINT gear, including some lab breadboards, performed probes of the Japanese-held island of the Kiska in the Aleutians in March 1942, and discovered the signatures of two more IJN Type 1 Model 1 radars, which the SIGINT operator reported sounded exactly like the signature of the US SCR-270 longwave radar. Consolidated PBY Catalina flying boats were also configured as ferrets, and more Japanese radars were soon identified.
Submarine ferrets would prove as effective as their flying brethren, possibly more so because the enemy generally didn’t know submarines were around and didn’t turn off their emitters. However, no other types of Japanese radars were detected through most of 1943, though there were rumors and bogus “sightings” of other types, such as airborne radars that the Japanese simply didn’t have at the time.
Better information began to trickle in towards the end of the year, and in February 1944, following the capture of Kwajalein island, the Americans found documents describing a number of Japanese radars, most interestingly the centimetric Mark II Model 2 shipboard radar. Further landings during the spring and summer revealed more data about Japanese radars, including some sets captured intact.


The countermeasures war reached its highest form during the Allied invasion of Normandy on 6 June 1944.
R.V. Jones, working with a colleague in photo-reconnaissance named Claude Wavell, compiled a map of German radar assets to help pave the way for the assault. Some of the stations were located by photo or electronic reconnaissance, as well as reports from resistance groups, but subtler measures were used as well. The TRE set up a network of direction finding stations in England, codenamed “Ping Pong”, that could each pin down the location of a radar transmitter to within a quarter of a degree, with triangulation giving the exact location. In a particularly devious trick, the RAF flew solitary reconnaissance missions on precisely-defined tracks, with the German reports on the missions intercepted and decrypted, revealing locations of radar stations that had tracked the aircraft.
Three weeks before the invasion, Allied bombers and strike aircraft began to attack critical radar stations. Rocket-firing RAF Hawker Typhoon strike fighters proved most effective, but encountered heavy anti-aircraft defenses. The TRE fitted a few Typhoons with a device named “Abdullah” that could home in on radar sites; it was the ancestor of the modern “radar homing and warning (RHAW)” receiver used on “Wild Weasel” type defense suppression aircraft. Abdullah worked fine, but it proved to have a serious drawback. German radar sites that observed Allied aircraft flying straight down the boresight at them immediately put their flak defenses on full alert, and the effect of Abdullah was to simply make the attacks harder. It was set aside, and attack plans were modified so that the Typhoons flew an oblique course toward a radar site and only turned directly on it at the last moment.
Squadrons of countermeasures aircraft screened the airborne assault force and the naval force. The countermeasures aircraft carried Mandrel radar jammers and Airborne Grocer radio jammers, and dropped “Rope”, essentially the same thing as Window but cut to 1.7 meter (5 feet 6 inch) lengths to jam Freya frequencies. Window and Rope were collectively known as “chaff”. Incidentally, Rope led the Germans to introduce a Doppler detection system for Freya, of course known as “Freya-laus”, which was also used on Mammut. A similar device, “Wasserfloh”, was used on Wassermann.
The invasion fleet also carried 800 jammers, with some landing ships fitted out as dedicated jamming platforms. Of course, the landing force also heavily relied on radar, with radar beacons set up by pioneer teams on landing beaches and passive radar “corner reflectors” or “Angels” set up to mark obstacles. Since there were fears that the Germans might try to disrupt the longwave Eureka beacons with airborne Kettenhund jammers, a handful of British Mosquito night fighters were fitted with a TRE gadget named “Lucero” that could home in on Kettenhund transmissions.
Along with direct countermeasures, the Allies conducted a massive deception campaign with many facets. Signals deception efforts were used to create simulated armies that seemed to be poised for landings in the Calais area and in Norway. Another part was the construction of two electronically simulated landing fleets by a team of TRE boffins under Robert Cockburn.
Developing the scheme involved clearing Cockburn for briefing on the invasion plan, and after he was briefed in detail in February 1944, he could hardly sleep for days after being entrusted with such a dangerous secret.
The goal of the effort was to spoof almost 100 German radar stations along the French and Belgian coasts. Seetakt was the primary target, but the plan was designed to fool other radars as well. Rope was to be used to simulate vessels, with bundles dropped at low altitude to form a ship-sized cloud that disappeared into the water before it spread, to be replaced by another cloud of Rope.
Two simulated invasion fleets set out on the evening of 5 June 1944. One, codenamed TAXABLE, consisted of eight Lancaster bombers and moved in the direction of Le Havre. The second, codenamed GLIMMER, consisted of six bombers and moved towards Bologne, 300 kilometers (185 miles) farther east.
The bombers simulated a surface fleet by flying in a racetrack pattern about 22 kilometers (14 miles) long at a speed of 290 KPH (180 MPH). The crew members dispensed Rope on a precisely timed schedule to ensure that the Rope clouds advanced at a rate consistent with the motion of a surface fleet. Aircraft with Mandrel jammers accompanied the two “fleets”, but operated at low power to allow German radars to penetrate their “jamming”.
The whole scheme required detailed planning and coordination, and had been rehearsed against British radar operators in Scotland in May. They reported it effective, but just to make sure, another test was performed against a radar station on the Yorkshire coast where the operators hadn’t been briefed beforehand. They reported the biggest convoy they had ever spotted.
Following the rehearsals, Cockburn got hold of 18 launches and worked them into the deception plan. The launches were equipped with an enhanced version of the Moonshine pulse repeater tuned to the German Hohentweil ASV band, and also towed floats known as “Filberts” that were in turn tethered to 9 meter (30 foot) long barrage balloons. The Filberts carried 3 meter (10 foot) diameter Angels to simulate a large vessel.
British signal operators in the mock fleet began to pick up contacts with radars of German air patrols about midnight. When the deception fleets got to about 16 kilometers (10 miles) offshore from their targets, they generated smokescreens and played the sounds of a large fleet in operation over big loudspeakers.
Elsewhere, RAF Stirling and Halifax bombers performed a fake airborne assault, releasing Rope, as well as little dolls on parachutes that looked like real paratroopers from a distance, fitted with firecrackers to suggest small-arms fire. A few British Special Air Service commandos went in with the dolls to help create further confusion.
In the meantime, RAF Lancaster and Flying Fortress bombers blocked the real airdrops by dropping a wall of Rope and blasting out communications jamming. German night-fighters were dispatched to attack the fake airdrop, but couldn’t even find it when the communications jamming cut off their connection to their ground controllers. One RAF bomber involved in the deception exercise was shot down, the crew successfully bailing out. None of the transports involved in the true airdrop were attacked by night fighters.
Cockburn’s deception effort was successful as well, though it proved to be overkill. TAXABLE was not observed, mostly because most of the German radar stations it was intended to fool had been knocked out by air strikes. GLIMMER, on the other hand, seemed to have been very successful, sowing confusion among the Germans. R.V. Jones does not seem to have been directly involved in these two exercises. Given his inclination towards pranks, he likely wished he had been.
Following the German surrender, the Allies interrogated German radar systems operators to determine the effectiveness of countermeasures. To get hands-on data, in late June and early July 1945, the British performed Operation POST MORTEM, in which the air defense network dealt with flights of bombers simulating attacks. The British learned that Allied countermeasures had been highly effective, though not entirely perfect.
After the operation, some of the German gear was packed off to Britain and the US for analysis. Most of the rest was demolished, though some was quietly spirited away by organizations in the countries of what had been Occupied Europe for their own analysis, and items such as Wuerzburg-Riese antennas were used for purposes such as radio astronomy.


Falklands War

Chaff was heavily used by British warships in the Falklands War. The absence of chaff launchers on the Atlantic Conveyor, while used by all other Royal Navy ships in the group, may have led to the ship’s sinking by an Exocet missile – although given the vessel’s large radar cross section, it is unlikely that chaff would have been effective.
During the war, British Sea Harrier aircraft lacked their conventional chaff dispensing mechanism. Therefore Royal Navy engineers designed an impromptu delivery system of welding rods, split pins and string which allowed six packets of chaff to be stored in the airbrake well and be deployed in flight. It was often referred to as the “Heath Robinson chaff modification”, due to its complexity.





“admitted to aerosols and say it is to fight global warming” – INCORRECT. The study of aerosols is carried out to discover the part anthropogenic combustion activities play in global warming.

“as far back as ww 2 for radar” – CHAFF ISN’T AN AEROSOL.

“caught lying” – WHEREAS THE REST OF US?

“money and power” – NO, JUST POWER.

“This is military” – 5% OF AVIATION?

“heavy since 98-99” – NO, LONG BEFORE. 98-99 WAS CHEAP VIDEOCAMS.

“cats licking because they like salt” – MAYBE THEY NEED SALT…

“delivery system they need on or in aircraft” – ON THAT 5%?

“full of yourself, usually means you’re lacking” – LEARNT THOROUGHLY BY AGE OF 65!


Spelling corrected… can’t do anything about your ability to LISTEN.



e. coli

e. coli

“there have been tests…Aluminum, Fluorescent Particles of zinc cadmium sulfide, e.coli, bacillus globigii (it mimics anthrax), serratia marcescens, bacteria, phenol” – of RAINWATER. You will find ALL of these in COMMON GARDEN SOIL (excepting ZCS). There are MILLIONS of bugs on YOU. MANY of them are a lot more HARMFUL than KILLED bacteria.

“Believe what you want” – SCIENCE works independently from BELIEF. I am talking about ATMOSPHERIC SCIENCE that has been KNOWN and PUBLISHED these last SIXTY years.

bacillus globigii

bacillus globigii

serratia marcescens

serratia marcescens

albertaoilers – “Chem Trails are out there” – there is proof of NOT A SINGLE ONE.

“but they have more of a checkerboard layout” – GRIDS are the result of TWO crossing routes of PASSENGER SHUTTLE flights.

“White C-130 are often observed around legitimate chemtrail reports” – there HASN’T BEEN a LEGITIMATE “chemtrail” report.


“If you want to ignore the evidence” – I ignore cherry-picked and manufactured evidence.

“If you dont believe the scientists” – I AM a scientist.

“Morgellons pathogens” – I go with Wikipedia.

“EDB banned US EPA” – Those wily farmers with their old pesticides…there’s none in jet fuel…

“Groups of 3 with jets flying front/side” – Military.

“Its not fairly harmless when its 7 times higher than safety limits and your inhaling it” – No dust is safe to inhale, let’s face it. What report was that?

“so why has anthrax been found in the air when chemtrails are being dispersed if its not in the air (when vapour trails have been seen)” – It is in the air. It’s an airborne pathogen. It’s natural. How could you distinguish chemtrails from persistent contrails?

“2 chemtrails” – oh dear we’re finished. The products of VAPOR TRAILS (they’re on the wrong side of the TROPOPAUSE) won’t fall to the ground beneath them unless the atmosphere REMAINS PERFECTLY STILL FOR DAYS. I’ve not seen that since 1976 (North Wales).


So what exactly is being measured?

* If “Morgellons” has a three hundred year old history, how could it have been aircraft that were dispersing that three hundred years ago? When was the switch to aircraft made?

If “Morgellons” is a tailor-made pathogen, who tailor-made it in 1708 AD?



“Allowing yourself to be a vessel for spreading deception is wrong whether or not you are doing (it) intentionally or out of ignorance” – Why, that’s the very nub of my anti-“chemtrail” argument! You are arguing with SCIENCE. Science is NEVER correct and ALWAYS amended, for it is understood to be FALLIBLE.

Nevertheless, in the case of “chemtrails” ALL CT ARGUMENTS SO FAR PRESENTED are based on the FAULTY UNDERSTANDING OF THE PHYSICAL NATURE OF THE ATMOSPHERE, coupled with an understandable dislike of the existing power structure (which I share – as if you cared).
Now arguing with Science is like arguing with Mathematics. Both function perfectly WITHOUT requirement of BELIEF. To present new arguments you MUST demonstrate you are FULLY cognizant of the totality of knowledge of either, and persuade OTHER WELL-QUALIFIED PEOPLE to EXPLORE and VALIDATE your new THEORY. Best of luck. None of you have ANY CHANCE of doing that – your COMPETENCE is WAY off the bottom of the chart.
YOUR standpoint is ALWAYS correct and NEVER amended, based on the writing of ignorant peasant tribes holding to an INFALLIBLE origin – a MYTH.
You bind each other with the LIES YOU TELL EACH OTHER.
It must be an IRONY for you that our “non-argument” was originated and continues only by courtesy of SCIENCE via this media.
So bugger off and get back to your mumbo-jumbo, burn a witch, stand on a mountaintop, continue making ridiculous and malevolent assertions, suck a goat, whatever.


Contrails to Cirrus

Morphology, Microphysics, and Radiative Properties

DAVID ATLAS – Laboratory for Atmospheres, NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland
ZHIEN WANG – Goddard Earth Science and Technology Center, University of Maryland, Baltimore County, Baltimore, and NASA Goddard Space Flight Center, Greenbelt, Maryland
DAVID P. DUDA – National Institute of Aerospace, NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, Virginia


The observation of the transformation of aircraft contrails to cirrus clouds has been reported repeatedly over the last half-century.
Appleman (1953) was one of the first to determine the atmospheric conditions in which ice crystals would form and persist. Knollenberg (1972) made the earliest in situ microphysical measurements in the resulting cirrus uncinus clouds. Further microphysical studies were made by Heymsfield (1975), and again many years later (Heymsfield et al. 1998). Konrad and Howard (1974) provided an insightful morphology of contrail cirrus and fallstreaks as viewed by ultrasensitive radars.
A number of investigators have reported the origin and growth of the initial tufts associated with contrails (Lewellen and Lewellen 2001; Gierens 1996) while Schröder et al. (2000) measured their initial microphysical properties during their transition to cirrus.
The reader will also find a number of useful papers on the subject in a special issue of Geophysical Research Letters (1998, Vol. 25, No. 9) dealing with the program “The Subsonic Aircraft: Contrail and Cloud Effects Special Study (SUCCESS)” (e.g., Minnis et al. 1998; Spinhirne et al. 1998; Lawson et al. 1998; Uthe et al. 1998). A particularly enlightening study of the spreading and growth of contrail clouds has resulted from the numerical simulations of Jensen et al. (1998).
Recent interest in contrails has focused upon their climatic impact and their geographical distribution (Minnis et al. 2004; DeGrand et al. 2000). All of the above provide the background for the present study. The reader is referred to a fine review article by Minnis (2003) for further background.
It was the exciting view of the transformation of a series of contrails seen by the lead author and the fortuitous availability of nearly simultaneous satellite imagery and automated lidar measurements that triggered the present work.
The goals of this study are to provide further insight into the processes responsible for such transformations and to combine them with prior literature in the hope of attaining a more robust synthesis of the mechanisms than would otherwise be possible.
This work is two pronged, discussing 1) the morphology of contrails and their transition to cirrus uncinus, and 2) their microphysical and radiative properties.
It is based upon the fortuitous occurrence of an unusual set of essentially parallel contrails and the unanticipated availability of nearly simultaneous observations by photography, satellite, automated ground-based lidar, and a newly available database of aircraft flight tracks.
The contrails, oriented from the northeast to southwest, are carried to the southeast with a component of the wind so that they are spread from the northwest to southeast. Convective turrets form along each contrail to form the cirrus uncinus with fallstreaks of ice crystals that are oriented essentially normal to the contrail length.
Each contrail is observed sequentially by the lidar and tracked backward to the time and position of the originating aircraft track with the appropriate component of the wind. The correlation coefficient between predicted and actual time of arrival at the lidar is 0.99, so that one may identify both visually and satellite-observed contrails exactly.
Contrails generated earlier in the westernmost flight corridor occasionally arrive simultaneously with those formed later closer to the lidar to produce broader cirrus fallstreaks and overlapping contrails on the satellite image. The minimum age of a contrail is two hours and corresponds to the longest time of travel to the lidar.
The lag between the initial formation of the contrail and its first detectability by Moderate-Resolution Imaging Spectroradiometer (MODIS) is thirty-three minutes, thus accounting for the distance between the aircraft track and the first detectable contrail by satellite. The lidar also provides particle fall speeds and estimated sizes, optical extinction coefficients, optical thickness (0.35 micrometres), and ice water path (IWP 8.1 grammes per square metre). These values correspond to the lower range of those found for midlatitude cirrus by Heymsfield et al.
The ice water per meter of length along the cloud lines is 103–104 times that released by typical jet aircraft. The synthesis of these findings with those of prior investigators provides confidence in the present results.
Various authors find that contrail-generated cirrus such as reported here contribute to net regional warming.





I’m happy to include here STARS15K’s reference list – all except my own site and some spoof sites. By leafing through this material and absorbing it, you could become sufficiently science-aware to be able to continue this blog yourself, for example. 🙂
http://profhorn.aos.wisc.edu/wxwise/AckermanKnox/chap15/contrail_applet.html (this site has a graph for you to set conditions and will fly a plane with the expected contrail formation at the top)
http://www.grida.no/publications/other/ipcc_sr/?src=/climate/ipcc/aviation/035.htm (this link has many chapters, be sure and drop the menu down to get the full report.)
http://www.dropletmeasurement.com/ (I just found this link on a chemtrail board. The poster claimed it showed chemspray planes. It doesn’t, it shows a company that does sampling and measurement IN SITU. I keep telling people that’s how a contrail would have to be tested, and this company can and does just that.)
http://www.astro.ku.dk/holger/IDA/notes.html (This site is older and some links might not work. It is a good representation that contrails are studied all over the world, though)
http://www.thebulletin.org/files/064002006_0.pdf A really well-done, balanced piece on geo-engineering. Not about chemtrails, but a good guide to use when considering that as a possible use/motive for chemtrail use.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/13115866/Chemtrailscc-the-Not-So-Secret-Ingredient-022009 This is a pro-CT publication, but has a diagram of the chemical process of jet fuel through an engine and a statement that any metallic aerosol will remain suspended for days. These go against what I’ve been told by CT here. The conclusions reached, I do not agree with. Other research has shown that the barium in Stadis 450 after combustion is significantly small enough it might even NOT show on certain tests, being within the expected “norm” of background.
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/rayshad.htm This is the entire site address, which is very cool. It also contains past galleries I have only begun to explore.
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/atoptics/contr1.htm This shows contrail shadows, aka ‘black beams’ or ‘black contrails’. There are two pages with explanations.
http://www.atoptics.co.uk/fz215.htm This page shows contrail shadows, but most importantly, two jets flying at the same altitude with different contrails. The reason? Something stated often, difference in the jet engines. One is more efficient than the other. So it happens, but for a known reason.

Turbofan Exhaust Constituents

Turbofan Exhaust Constituents

Written by JazzRoc

November 13, 2008 at 1:00 am

Posted in atmosphere, chemtrails, contrails, global warming, science, Truth

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Circle of Confusion

with one comment


Circle of Confusion – ChemCon Alert – Circus – Comment – Cone Trick – CREPUSCULAR SHADOWS

Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page… 



Our hero here is ebendimention, who, with the careless confidence of a person who has never pushed himself to the limits of his understanding, is forging his brave new world with his videocam. He isn’t a mean-minded SOB like some of them, so I’m a little sympathetic, really. He writes to me:

Hey Jazz Roc…Take a gander at the video I posted here and watch in GREAT detail! Explain it all and you will go down in history as the most pathetic debunker of all time! Or can you do something so minuscule as clicking on my name? LOL You’ll find an enormous amount of debunking work to be done there… I’ll be waiting for your constructive criticism. 🙂


His video outline is this:


Get yourself a tripod. Learn to LOCK your videocam focus on INFINITY. Take note of the position of the sun, and try not to get distracted by plastic bags floating aloft.

Then you’ll have NOTHING to write home about… BECAUSE

1) The plane is DARK and BLUE LIGHT SCATTERING renders it invisible

2) The “UFO” is a plastic bag; they frequently get borne aloft

3) Point sources of light (sun reflected off spherical surfaces) form a CIRCLE OF CONFUSION in an out-of-focus image. (“Circle of confusion” is a great collective noun for chemtrailers!)

4) The SUN is ABOVE and BEHIND the aircraft. BENEATH it is a thin layer of CIRRUS on to which the SHADOW of the PLANE and TRAIL are PROJECTED.

Confusion, indeed! This is a classic example of ignorance… he flatly denies that shadows can be thrown onto cloud, and that the trail is between the Sun and the cloud… a case where he is unwilling to learn any geometry.

The rock’n’roll (some of my most favorite tracks of all time!) on this vid makes it worth listening to (sorry, ebendimention!). (I believe he meant to call himself EBEN DIMENSION!) 



There is a new website out there keenly focussed on the use and dangers of DHMO – called ChemCon Alert: – “The Sky Really Is Falling”.

This material has killed thousands, perhaps millions, of people in the past, and is theorized to be present in large quantities in the materials sprayed by aircraft in our skies.

Anyway, pay it a visit and see if you agree…




“No one today can possibly view that circus we call the “news” on tv and radio and not see and understand that we are being had” – I HAVE KNOWN THAT FOR THIRTY YEARS.

“you will then have your answer as to who are the perpetrators” – NO YOU WON’T.

“We are forcing them to play their hand” – THE HELL YOU ARE, YOU STUPID MEGALOMANIAC!

“There can be no doubt that the “theatres” around the world, are the Imperial Elitists creation” – THEY’RE ONLY PARTLY. OTHERS GATHER POWER IN THE LOCALITY.

“By-the-way you appear to take things very personally” – OF COURSE I DO. I’M A PERSON.

“it tells all of us here that you and your “friends” have a vested interest in hiding the truth” – I HAVE NO “FRIENDS” – NEITHER YOU NOR THEY LOOK PUKKA TO ME!

“I urge people to raise their heads and do their homework” – YEAH, YEAH, LOOK UP AND DON’T LEARN SCIENCE, BUY SNAKE OIL!



THIS is COMMENT – by Ludosophist: as succinct as it is possible to be and with a needle-sharp accuracy…

Man, you may be on to something about endemic irrationality. Since I posted that video calling into question the existence of chemtrails, I’ve gotten so many nasty comments and messages, people calling me a zombie and a shill, etc. Probably the most zealous are coming here from one of your comments, scrolling down, then dropping into my vid via your link and thinking that I’m like a tipping-point convert that they can influence. I grew up in the Catholic Church man, very averse to the smell of bullshit.

I think, however, that it would be productive to analyze why chemtrails are such a seductive thing to believe in. Part of it is the presentation, you get the propagation of a whole system of memes that seem fairly plausible, largely because they’re based on the more or less factual premise that the government would kill you if there were profit in it. Between the abuses of the constitution, a bankrupting war to secure oil for transnational corporations, 9-11 smoke and the collective hysteria that goes all the way back to Africanized bees (remember those?), it’s not surprising that people would find a global depopulation plan involving mass spraying to be grippingly plausible.

The easiest way to depopulate the planet? Constrain the supply of oil. It doesn’t even have to be intentional, the natural supply shows its expiry date, so you start buying up your shares, bidding up the futures market (futures determine what oil, already available for consumption, is marked for ownership by third parties) and bam, the tendencies of the market system endemically price people out of being able to eat. This is what people should be concerned about, they should be planting up their properties, or trying their damnedest to secure a few acres to plant up, and prepare. Economically, logistically, in real, day-to-day terms, the best thing people can do is encourage others to get into a position where they won’t starve, effecting less aggregate violence and chaos as things tighten.

The more you look to the skies and forget about the earth, the greater your chances of being doomed because you wasted your time in comment wars. 



Aviation fuel is not good to drink, but nor is it toxic in the same way that snake venom is.

When burnt and condensed it would make soda pop. A bit of filtering through charcoal might help to remove trace unburnt hydrocarbons, but after that you could sell it in your local store as soda pop. What about the sulfur dioxide, I here you ask? Well, add a little fruit cordial and it would help preserve the freshness of the fruit. The NOX? Ah, you got me there…..but when you consider that the THREE HUNDRED MILLION TONS of aviation fuel burnt every year represents an INCREASE in the atmosphere of FIVE MILLIONTHS OF ONE PER CENT, then you needn’t get too worried.

It might be better to worry about the FIFTEEN HUNDRED ACTIVE VOLCANOES that exist. Now they REALLY ARE active 24/7!

Imagine a cone 243 feet high, made of rock. That weighs a million tons. There’s quite a lot of volcanoes bigger than 243 feet high. Some are MILES high!

Now accept that weight for weight, volcanoes expel at least their own weight in gases, steam, and dust. Now imagine one thousand five hundred of them, working away, night after day, day after night.

Then consider there are possibly TEN THOUSAND ACTIVE VOLCANOES beneath the surface of the oceans. And remember that vulcanism is slowly dying on the Earth as it sheds its original heat and radioactivity.



My dear friend ebendimention came back to me, thanking me for my tutelage, so:

Hello Again Jazzy,

Its been a while, my friend. I say that in open honesty. I have learned a lot about con/chemtrails since my first ‘emotional’ days in ‘07 on the ‘YouTube Scene’.

You have actually done me and the people a great service. If there were no opposing factor, there would not be ’screaming mad’ people looking even harder for real truth.

There was one thing that you said that DID stick with me, and that was when you said, “The world needs some keen investigators”. How right you were.

I understand now that disinformants exist for many reasons. Both pro and con. For me, its been the former.

I dont need to make this long, just know that there was never any hard feelings, and nothing you ever said did I take personally. I guess the end justified the means…  at least that’s my perspective.

Please have a ‘look-see’ at my lastest videos. I know what they are not. I think even you will be amazed at what I have filmed. (I think my stargate pictures may be a little much for now)

Id really like to see your comments on them. Even if for ‘old times sake’

Take Care and ‘Keep on Spammin’ lol


He then enclosed videos of contrails with shadows…

WHat he needed to check out was http://www.atoptics.co.uk which could have straightened him out completely on some of the totally non-intuitive aspects of crepuscular shadows. It is in the blog links to the right.


And here is a shuttle launch with shadow it didn’t navigate down. The sound in this video is incredible – but true.

We are told that chemtrail craft navigate by “black laser light”. Really!

These people have never seen Micket Mouse’s rendition of “the Sorcerer’s Apprentice”… 🙂 I can’t provide the original Disney masterpiece, but here’s my synthesizer’s rendition of the music:
The Sorcerer’s Apprentice – Paul Dukas.



with one comment



Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page…




Contrails or vapor trails are condensation trails and artificial cirrus clouds made by the exhaust of aircraft engines or wingtip vortices which precipitate a stream of tiny ice crystals in moist, frigid upper air. Being composed of water, the visible white streams are not, in and of themselves, air pollution. However, contrails generated by engine exhaust are inevitably linked with typical fuel combustion pollutants. Contrails might also be considered visual pollution.

* 1 Condensation from engine exhaust
* 2 Condensation from wing-tip pressure
* 3 Contrails and climate
3.1 September 11, 2001 climate impact study
* 4 See also
* 5 Related matters
* 6 References
* 7 External links

How a Turbo Fan Jet Engine Works

The main products of hydrocarbon fuel combustion are carbon dioxide and water vapor.

At high altitudes this water vapor emerges into a cold environment, and the local increase in water vapor can push the water content of the air past saturation point. The vapor then condenses into tiny water droplets and/or desublimates into ice. These millions of tiny water droplets and/or ice crystals form the contrails. The energy drop (and therefore, time and distance) the vapor needs to condense accounts for the contrail forming some way behind the aircraft’s engines. The majority of the cloud content comes from water trapped in the surrounding air.  At high altitudes, supercooled water vapor requires a trigger to encourage desublimation. The exhaust particles in the aircraft’s exhaust act as this trigger, causing the trapped vapor to rapidly turn to ice crystals. Exhaust contrails usually occur at above 26,000 feet. where the temperature is below -40°C (-40°F).

Condensation from wing-tip pressure

Main article: wingtip vortices


The wings of an airplane cause a drop in air pressure in the vicinity of the wing. This brings with it a drop in temperature, which can cause water to condense out of the air and form a contrail but only at higher altitudes. At lower altitudes, this phenomenon is also known as “ectoplasm.” Ectoplasm is more commonly seen during high energy maneuvers like those of a fighter jet, or on jet liners during takeoff and landing, at areas of very low pressure, including over the wings, and often around turbo-fan intakes on takeoff.

Contrails and climate


Contrails, by affecting cloud formation, can act as a radiative forcing. Studies have found that contrails trap outgoing longwave radiation emitted by the Earth and atmosphere (positive radiative forcing) at a greater rate than they reflect incoming solar radiation (negative radiative forcing).

Therefore, the overall effect of contrails is warming. However, the effect varies daily and annually, and overall the size of the forcing is not well known: globally (for 1992 air traffic conditions), values range from 3.5 mW/m² to 17 mW/m². Other studies have determined that night flights are most responsible for the warming effect: while accounting for only 25% of daily air traffic, they contribute 60 to 80% of contrail radiative forcing.

Similarly, winter flights account for only 22% of annual air traffic, but contribute half of the annual mean radiative forcing.

September 11, 2001 climate impact study


It had been hypothesized that in regions such as the United States with heavy air traffic, contrails affected the weather, reducing solar heating during the day and radiation of heat during the night by increasing the albedo. The suspension of air travel for three days in the United States after September 11, 2001 provided an opportunity to test this hypothesis. Measurements did show that without contrails the local diurnal temperature range (difference of day and night temperatures) was about 1 degree Celsius higher than immediately before; however, it has also been suggested that this was due to unusually clear weather during the period.


See also

* Aviation and climate change
* Cirrus cloud
* Global dimming
* Ship tracks
* List of environment topics
* Chemtrail conspiracy theory

Related matters

* Aurora aircraft are hypothesized high-technology Black project aircraft which leave “donuts-on-a-rope” contrails.

(But “donuts-on-a-rope” contrails are known to be an occasional consequence of the normal wave vortex of normal aircraft. The two vortices which comprise the wave vortex of an aircraft occasionally grow to interfere with each other, and generate coupled vortices at right angles to the original pair. These look like “smoke rings”, or “donuts”. See “The Crow Instability” in “Trails from Space”: https://jazzroc.wordpress.com/2008/11/20/03-trails-seen-from-space/ )


1. NASA, Contrail Education FAQ
2. Ponater et al., GRL, 32 (10): L10706 2005
3. Stuber, Nicola; Piers Forster, Gaby Rädel, Keith Shine (June 15, 2006). “The importance of the diurnal and annual cycle of air traffic for contrail radiative forcing”. Nature 441: 864-867. DOI:10.1038/nature04877.
4. Travis et al., J. Climate, 17, 1123-1134, 2004
5. Kalkstein and Balling Jr., Climate Research, 26, 1-4, 2004

External links

Wikimedia Commons has media related to:

* Contrails.nl: Pictures of Contrails and Aviation Cirrus (-Smog), from 1995 on.
* Abstract of article in Nature announcing research results of contrail temperature change study
* Clouds Caused By Aircraft Exhaust May Warm The U.S. Climate
* Contrails over the USA
* Effects of contrails on ground astronomy
* Contrail simulator (Java applet) — interactively shows how temperature and humidity of the surrounding air affect contrail formation and characteristics
* Contrails: What’s Left Behind Is Bad News, article by Nick Onkow from March 4, 2006
* Night flights give bigger boost to global warming


An Article by Airliners.net

Contrails: What’s Left Behind Is Bad News
By Nick Onkow

Nick Onkow offers an informative and illuminating exposé on the detrimental effects of contrails to our environment. Contained herein is an undeniably important article not just because of its content, but because it breaches a topic so commonly overlooked, and so consistently regarded as harmless.

“Our ideals, laws and customs should be based on the proposition that each generation, in turn, becomes the custodian rather than the absolute owner of our resources and each generation has the obligation to pass this inheritance on to the future.”


There is some irony in that statement which defends the argument that it is the obligation of the living population of Earth to leave an environment in the best condition it can for the succeeding generation. Why the irony? It was said by world famous aviator Charles Lindbergh, the first pilot to cross the Atlantic Ocean alone. He was concerned about the way the environment was beginning to be affected by humans on an increasingly larger scale and at the time, his aerial view of land development was rare.

Today the aviation industry is larger than many people would have ever imagined it would be and it is only going to grow more as the population of Earth climbs past six billion and national economies grow with it. The nature of commercial aviation includes some detrimental results to the environment. Fuel is burned and the exhaust fills the atmosphere, but cars, trains, and ships do the same. Jet aircraft, however, have a unique form of harming the environment that is associated exclusively with them: contrails. They are the long, thin clouds that are blasted out of the exhaust nozzle of jet engines at high altitudes. Some days they fade away within a few minutes and they pose no threat. It is the days that perfect conditions exist when they do their damage, drifting and expanding to several thousand square miles and blanketing the lowest atmosphere of Earth through the night, unnaturally trapping heat. Some argue that contrails have no effect on the environment but evidence indicates this opinion is not valid. Several solutions to the problem exist. Jets could fly at different altitudes, or engine standards could be raised so that insurance rates are less for those that are friendlier to the environment. Knowledge from the military stealth aircraft program could be incorporated into civilian aviation to avoid contrails, or contrail forecasts could be incorporated into flight planning process so that contrail-prone routes and altitudes are avoided. Contrary to some opinions, contrails have indeed helped raise the temperature of North America and the entire planet since the start of the jet age and continue to do so, making a long-term plan to reduce them a plan that needs to be initiated.


Photo © Josef P. Willems

Contrails are essentially clouds and are the same effect as seeing one’s breath on a cold, damp day. The narrow bands of ice crystals gradually expand into a cirrus-type high-altitude cloud if conditions are just right. Just how often are the conditions conducive to their formation? “At flight altitudes, conditions that support contrail-generated cirrus exist 10% – 20% of the time in clear air and within standing cirrus”. Although this is a small percentage, the diverse weather of North America coupled with the staggering number of commercial flights in the air results in at least some part of the United States being good contrail weather on any given day. Worldwide, contrails are estimated to cover 0.1% of the Earth’s surface area and that number is forecast to rise to 0.5% by 2050.

There is some debate over just how effective this cirrus cloud coverage is at raising the average temperature of the land it covers. A NASA study conducted in the USA between 1975 and 1994 found the average temperature to have increased by 1°F . Though a single degree may seem trivial, the incredibly large scale that it applies to makes it significant since just 9°F separates our current average temperature from the last Ice Age. In one study conducted by meteorologist Keith P. Shine, data from satellites was used to prove that only one percent of the increase in clouds throughout the world has been from aircraft. There are also inherent flaws in some of the research performed by NASA. One problem is the difficulty that scientists have distinguishing a suspected contrail cloud from a natural cirrus cloud in satellite images. Skeptics of the theory that contrails do not have an impact on weather argued this theory with some success until a significant event occurred in North America, the main testing grounds of contrail research.

Contrails or Cirrus Clouds? - Newfoundland, 7 May 1999

Contrails or Cirrus Clouds? - Newfoundland, 7 May 1999

The terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 was the aforementioned event, and it was likely to have excited meteorological researchers involved in contrail impact studies. The national airspace was shut down for three days, something that had not yet occurred since the jet age began in the 1960s and is not likely to occur ever again. Scientists took advantage of this unique three day period in history that lacked contrails. What they learned was shocking and is enough evidence to effectively silence any counterargument to their case. One measure of climate is the average daily temperature range (DTR). For thirty years this had been recorded and extra cirrus clouds in the atmosphere would reduce this range by trapping heat. “September 11 – 14, 2001 had the biggest diurnal temperature range of any three-day period in the past 30 years,” said Andrew M. Carleton. Not in three decades had there been such a large temperature spread between the daytime highs and the nighttime lows. Furthermore, the increase in DTR during those three days was more than double the national average for regions of the United States where contrail coverage was previously known to be most abundant, such as the midwest, northeast, and northwest regions. The specific increase in the range was 2°F, which in three days was twice the amount the average temperature had increased over a thirty years time period. This is evidence that contrails do alter the climate of the land they drift above.

Northeastern U.S., 11 Feb. 1999

Northeastern U.S., 11 Feb. 1999

There are several methods that can be explored that will help reduce the role that contrails play in global warming. The easiest way to avoid this global warming through contrail cirrus clouds is to have jets fly at different altitudes. Flying higher than the typical 30,000 to 40,000 feet would usually stop contrails from forming, as would flying lower. Each of these options is, unfortunately, made unrealistic by consequences associated with them. Besides performance limitations of the aircraft above the normal cruising altitudes, airplanes begin flying in the lowest layer of ozone that is found in the tropopause (the dividing line between the lowest two layers of the atmosphere). As for flying lower, the decrease in altitude results in denser air and higher air resistance. This increases fuel burn, which increases the amount of carbon dioxide emitted, negating any benefits from eliminating contrails.

Ruling out drastic changes in altitude, another option might be to increase the emission standards of jet engines and with that only insure airplanes with the newer, cleaner engines. Tests were performed with a NASA jet aircraft examining the effect of sulfur levels in jet fuel exhaust. During the airborne test one engine was run on normal jet fuel and the other engine was run on fuel that emitted exhaust with a lower sulfur content. The high sulfur engine, representing most jet engines on modern commercial aircraft, produced a contrail that lasted through a larger range of temperatures and formed faster out of the engine. The low sulfur engine did the opposite. “Aircraft generate an invisible aerosol trail which enhances the background level of condensation nuclei, in particular regions with dense air traffic at northern latitudes and near the tropopause”. These condensation nuclei are the tiny particles that give water vapor the ability to condense to liquid droplets. The International Civil Aviation Organization is in favor of making polluting, obsolete aircraft uninsurable. While this option would not completely eliminate contrails, it would narrow the window of conditions needed to form them, making them less common.

Photo © Josef P. Willems

Photo © Josef P. Willems

A third solution to avoiding the large-scale creation of contrails is just that – avoidance. Partly through military research, new methods of forecasting the formation of contrails have been learned. This was a result of stealth aircraft that are not detectable by radar but are easily spotted from the ground if a contrail is following it. A program was initiated by the Air Force Weather Agency with the goal of improved contrail prediction techniques by closely examining the weather that was conducive to their formation. The program, run in 2000, used radiosondes (weather balloons) to measure water vapor content and temperature at different altitudes compared to actual observations of aircraft in the area. The end result was a success: “The statistical model produced a correct diagnosis of contrail occurrence or nonoccurrence for 85% of the observations”. Statistical contrail forecasting, then, is the easiest way for this problem to start being dealt with. Returning to the fact that only 10% to 20% of the country’s airspace is conducive to forming contrails at any given time, that leaves at least eighty percent available for use, and that is not even accounting for the third dimension of altitude which could be used in avoidance.

One way to do this would be to equip each aircraft with a device that detects the conditions that were confirmed in the Air Force study as being conducive to contrail formation3. The Federal Aviation Administration or Environmental Protection Agency could monitor these from the ground to see when an aircraft is flying in one of these areas. Incentives to use other airspace or altitudes could be put in place to reduce the number of jets flying there, such as reduced taxes on fuel or airport fees, or an extra tax or fine on aircraft that fly through the airspace that will leave a cirrus cloud drifting behind.

The North Sea, 15 May 1998

The North Sea, 15 May 1998

Unfortunately, aviation will always have some detrimental impact on the environment. What is most important, then, is reducing those impacts to the extent practicable. Through studies it has become apparent that contrails expanding into cirrus clouds do have some impact on the weather and the environment. Global warming is already a concern, and although the extent to which contrails are contributing to global warming is debatable, it cannot be argued that they have no effect. Using weather forecasting to predict areas where cirrus clouds will form from contrails should eventually be used in combination with devices on aircraft and cleaner engines with lower emissions (especially of contents such as sulfuric acid) to actively reduce the negative effects of contrails. As the aviation industry grows, limiting its negative impact on the environment will be a difficult challenge, and reducing the amount of heating that has already taken place as a result of high-flying aircraft will be an even greater challenge.

Photo © Jeffwell

Photo © Jeffwell

1. Carleton, Andrew M. “Climatology: Contrails Reduce Daily Temperature Range.” Nature. 8 August 2002.
2. Graham-Rowe, Duncan. “High Flyers are Scourge of the Skies.” New Scientist. 19 October 2002, Vol. 176, Issue 2365.
3. Jackson, Artie. “Statistical Contrail Forecasting.” Journal of Applied Meteorology. February 2001, Vol. 40, Issue 2.
4. Minnis, Patrick. “Contrail Frequency over the United States from Surface Observations.” Atmospheric Sciences Research. NASA Langley Research Center, Hampton, VA. 12 August 2002.
5. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. Operational Significant Event Imagery Image of the Day, February 11 1999.
6. Schumann, U. “In Situ Observations of Particles in Jet Aircraft Exhausts and Contrails for Different Sulfur-Containing Fuels.” Journal of Geographical Research. 1996, Vol. 101, Issue D3.
7. Watson, Traci. “Plane Trails in Sky Turn Up the Heat Below, Study Suggests.” USA Today. 29 April 2004.

Written by Nick Onkow. Nick Onkow is a pilot, a flight instructor, and a photographer, whose photographs can be found here at airliners.net. Based on the amount of study invested in this topic, we consider him an expert on contrails and their environmental effects.


IsuA380B777 2006-03-10 – Dear Nick. An excellent and well researched article. Regards

N62NA 2006-03-12 – Very well put together. I hope other a.netters will take the time to read through your excellent article.

AFEaviator 2006-03-14 – Very interesting article! I know you article is directed specifically at contrails, but you mention the wide temperature variance during the no fly days post 9/11. I am curious if the margin was less or more in large commercial traffic cities. There has been some very interesting studies about large cities producing their own weather effects and I am curious how this no-fly time period may have affected them.

KLM685 2006-03-18 – Congratulations for this piece of excellent work! I used to have geography classes with this teacher from Alaska. She always condemned everything she considered as pollution…that means everything. So one day she talked about how contrails damaged the atmosphere, etc… Thanks to this article I’m now able to put the puzzle together. Amazing research. Well done! Alonsou

Xjramper 2006-03-26 – Very interesting read. There are two things I would like to argue. One was weather. That information seems to be lacking, to prove that the drastic change in the temperatures were not caused by a massive frontal system. The other thing that I see is that it was a 3 day observation. What this is telling me is that the earth reversed 40+ years (14,600+ days) of jet pollution and showed that great of a climatic change in 3 days. Seems a little unrealistic to me. zach

Goboeing 2006-03-26 – The jet pollution from the preceding 40 years of flying did not disappear. What did disappear for three days were the jets that produced the contrails that form cirrus clouds. The cirrus clouds expand, drift, and trap heat at night. That results in less cooling. During the three days, there were no contrails over the U.S. and therefore no jet-made cirrus clouds to trap the heat. Nick

Xjramper 2006-03-27 – First, I did not say they disappeared. Secondly, I would like to see numbers that were recorded during this time. Is there a link that these are available? Because I randomly looked at 5 cities around the country and noticed little to no difference to the change in temperature. Thanks…zach

Goboeing 2006-03-27 – The fourth source at the bottom of the article has the numbers I think you are looking for. It is fairly lengthy but they are in there. Picking five cities at random does not give an accurate idea of a change in the usual daily temperature range (DTR). You’d have to compare the min and max temperatures in 24 hour periods and frontal systems and local weather can affect that. Nick

Tornado82 2006-04-06 – Sorry Nick, nice editorial opinion article but scientific evidence isn’t gathered in 3 days of records to research something as long-term as climatologic facts. Your sampling is simply way too small, and is heavily affected by the unrelated climatology of that three-day span. This is why most of us in the meteorological community never embraced the “findings” of the September 11th tragedy timeframe as anything but a loose hypothesis.

Just prior to 9/11 was one of the first pattern-shifting frontal passages of the transition season for that fall. Meteorological/climatological fall begins Sept 1, regardless of the equinox. The atmosphere was relatively dry across much of the nation, with crystal-clear skies (even before the tragedy occurred) thanks to the strong high pressure over that period, and still the relatively high Mid-September sun angle. The day time temperatures soared with a well mixed, dry atmosphere across much of the country, especially the Northeastern quadrant where contrails would typically be most prevalent, and where the most observing stations are. A nearly 1030 mb high pressure is quite strong for that time of year, and was anchored over our country bringing a shot of polar air with it. Of course, as will almost always happen in one of these types of atmospheres, decoupling occurred at night. No more mixing is occuring in the atmosphere, the wind becomes very calm, and cold air quickly sinks to the surface with no vertical motion (mixing) to support it. This happens nearly every time you get one of these types of atmospheric setups, it is just that people looked at it with more interest due to the lack of contrails. Additionally, with the upper-level atmospheric setup over much of that time, contrails would not have been very prevalent anyways.

The larger-than-usual diurnal range was caused simply by a very well mixed atmosphere in the daytime, with a very decoupled atmosphere at night, and the magnification of this type of atmospheric setup occuring over a large portion of the nation at the time. Adding to the huge diurnal range is that this occurred when the SST’s and Great Lakes, and any other water-body surface temperatures are near their annual peaks, eliminating any “sea breeze” or “lake breeze” effect to moderate the temperatures. Based on the surface dew points, sky conditions, and decoupling leading to lack of nighttime winds in the time period studied, the low temperatures are right where they should have been. You would have needed much more time to sample effect, or a very sophisticated computer modelling system to replicate the event. So far, neither has happened, and I pray to God that there is no more chance of another catastrophe closing our nation’s airspace in a similar manner.

Bwood 2006-04-17 I find this article hard to believe. The idea that the clouds that form from contrails are trapping in heat to me sounds ridiculous. Now before you attack me I know that clouds do trap heat and can keep temperatures higher at night but the clouds we are talking about are at 30000-50000ft. They are so thin you can see through them. For the heat to be trapped at ground level they would have to be lower and only a few hundred to thousand feet off the surface. Also over half the world’s entire atmosphere is between ground level and 8000 feet. If these contrails were lower then maybe but not at thirty to forty thousand feet. I know that the ozone is high up in the upper atmosphere as well but this is a layer of gas that is supposed to block in radiation from the sun. Clouds do not have the same affect. The sun’s radiation goes through clouds and that is why you can get sunburned on a cloudy day. The radiation also can bounce back up through the clouds to the ozone layer. The radiation is what harms us and the atmosphere. It is not that heat itself bounces back from the ozone layer it is the sun’s radiation that bounces back that heats up our atmosphere. Tell me how warm it is on a winter’s night when it is totally clear and 10 degrees below zero then tell me how extra warm it feels when there are some cirrus clouds at 50000ft and it is supposed to be ten degress below zero. It will feel exactly the same. I think the real danger comes from the jet exhaust itself and not water vapor 6-9 miles off the ground. I also feel that there are far greater polluters in this world. Read March 06’s National Geographic that came out on coal plants. There is where we are going to kill our planet. That and cars. Coal plants are the real danger. Jets burn jet A which is basically kerosene or a slightly modified diesel fuel. This has its advantages since it produces only hydrocarbons as pollutants and emits no sulfur or nitrogen pollutants like cars or power plants, however it does produce carbon dioxide. That is a study that should be done. What are the affects of carbon dioxide in the upper atmosphere? I think that the study (or I should say so-called study) done for the three days after 9/11 is not anything that you can come to a conclusion from. It is only three days of data and you can not call something like that a fact after only three days of data. There are too many factors that can cause interference with this so called tested and true study. You would need years of data in different conditions and weather to figure out if this was true. I really cannot accept the idea that contrails that are just water vapor are covering the sky, blocking in the heat from the ground and warming our planet by several degress. If that was the case then everyday that we have clouds the temperature of the earth should rise and cause global warming. People have to remember that there is more than one factor that goes into our climate and weather patterns. I agree that airplanes are pollutors and that something should be done about it. However aviation right now does not have the technology to make “hybrid or alternative fuel planes.” Ethanol is being tested for smaller piston engines but is only in the earliest experimental stages. You are not going to see an Airbus A380 running on corn or hydrogen anytime soon. I think that more research should be done to try and eventually turn planes away from petroleum and to another clean source but it is decades away. We should try to focus our “energy” on making cars and powerplants (by far the greatest polluters on our planet) carbon dioxide-free within the next ten to twenty years. It is possible but the red tape and political issues are enormous. We all need to write our congressmen and women along with the president to get more funding and support for zero emission power plants and cars. Which by the way as of right now we know how to make coal plants and cars zero emisson but no one is doing it on the large scale. Let’s focus our interests on the big and correctable polluters first and then expand out from there.

Mdgg2009 2006-06-23 Chemtrails, not contrails. 😦

Apart from the grisly flatus of that final comment, my reasoning agrees with Tornado82. There were other reasons for the figures for that 3-day period which make more sense to me. The conclusions of the article are not correct.

However I heartily recommend Airliners.net as a high-quality source of pictures, news, and comment…


on 25 Jun 2008 Post 126 the Gregger

so basicly what this website is telling me is that everything i see in the sky is normal. tick tack toe grid patterns are normal and when the sky is covered from horizon to horizon with “Jet crap” i should just go outside and do some strenuous activities, breath deep and don’t worry?

Hanfbauer bei der Ernte

I’m sorry Shill. i don’t buy it. Where are the bees?


why is there more statick electricity in the air (more now than i have ever noticed)? I know what HAARP is.


i know what a cloud is.


and i know what a shill is!


…….over a thousand tornadoes this year in the midwest. A “freek” electrical storm in June in california.!


Can’t wait for that sack of cement to come flying through my roof on the fourth of july when they’re trying to make a “Nice day” for us to view the fireworks.


Oh hey and make sure you catch the olympics in china this year. Should be nice out. They’ve forcasted no rain for the duration of the games. Sweet! Hard hat and suntan lotion.! ……..as for the “suckerfish” on the tail of that plane? well i hate to say it but my little HP foto devise is a piece of poo. i’m in the market for a faster camera with a fat zoom so I can get those fotos my debunker friends need to see. ……time to go out and play. I see a little square of blue sky left out there. better go get in it before it becomes a concloud. breath deep SR#$%^.


From Uncinus of contrailscience.com as of 24.04.09, an early photo of WW2 trails...

From Uncinus of contrailscience.com as of 24.04.09, an early photo of WW2 trails…


High Clouds (Family A): Cirrus (Ci) • Cirrus uncinus • Cirrus Kelvin-Helmholtz colombia • Cirrostratus (Cs) • Cirrocumulus (Cc) • Pileus • Contrail
Middle Clouds (Family B): Altostratus (As) • Altostratus undulatus • Altocumulus (Ac) • Altocumulus undulatus • Altocumulus mackerel sky • Altocumulus castellanus • Altocumulus lenticularis
Low Clouds (Family C): Stratus (St) • Nimbostratus (Ns) • Cumulus humilis (Cu) • Cumulus mediocris (Cu) • Stratocumulus (Sc)
Vertical Clouds (Family D): Cumulonimbus (Cb) • Cumulonimbus incus • Cumulonimbus calvus • Cumulonimbus with mammatus • Cumulus congestus • Cumulus castellanus • Pyrocumulus • Pyrocumulonimbus

cumulus congestus

cumulus congestus


Statement 1 – “contrails form at a wing-span distance from bottom of plane”. – UNTRUE. The formation distance behind the plane depends on its VELOCITY, AND THE TEMPERATURE AND RELATIVE HUMIDITY OF THE AMBIENT AIR. Your statement is a rough approximation only.

Statement 2 – “sudden short gaps in the trails” – ARE CAUSED BY PLANES FLYING THROUGH “WAVES” OF MORE HUMID AIR, rather like dolphins swimming through waves in the sea.

Statement 3 – “same time try to explain their day-long endurance/spreading claiming the higher levels have uniform saturation. – FALSE. THEY SPREAD IN SATURATED AIR. AT WHATEVER HEIGHT.


Statement 5 – “Spiderwebs” LIE

Statement 6 – “Anthrax” LIE


A brief history of “Chemtrails”


“Chemtrails” are supposedly long lasting contrails that are being deliberately created by the government for some sinister purpose. In reality, these contrails just look like normal contrails. It’s a fringe conspiracy theory that spread over the internet, mutating as it goes for survivability. But where did it begin? What is the origin of the word “chemtrail”, and who started this particular conspiracy theory?

Google Groups archives internet news-groups back to 1981, but the earliest mention of chemtrails was from May 8th, 1999: on alt.fan.art-bell: “this cartilage gel that Art’s plugging could be used for the joint ache that chemtrail victims complained about last night… say… wait a minute…maybe chemtrails were deployed to boost cartilage gel sales…! Here we have mention of chemtrail victims, and “joint ache” as a symptom.*


* “Joint ache” is a symptom of both diabetes and arthritis, which are known to be consequential to being over-weight. The western diet is the most likely causative agent in these cases.

In may of 1999, we have this: CHEMTRAILS OVER AMERICA Issue #2 April 7-16, 1999: “dear friends and concerned sky-watchers”, a March 17, 1999 radio interview going out to 15 million listeners – again referencing the Art Bell show. So it seems that radio show was perhaps the start of the phenomena. The “Chemtrails over America” bulletin apparently had issue #1 on march 9, 1999. That also seems to be about the time people started taking photos of normal contrails.

Judging by the earliest postings, it seems like hypochondria plays a large part. People start to connect the contrails with illness, and suspect they must contain some kind of poison.

Looking at the previous year (1998) on usenet, there is NO mention of chemtrails. The word “contrail” crops up 324 times, mostly in reference to meteors and rockets. There are a few references to the affect of contrails on climate change. But NOTHING about deliberate contrail creation, or anything like “chemtrails”.


The web site chemtrailcentral.com was registered on May 6th, 2000, about a year after the “chemtrail” idea was created. The earliest archived page from there indicates a lot of local media involvement, and their archive indicates nothing before 4/24/2000, which said: “Monday a KHOU crew met with Chemtrail Tracking USA Club co-founders Lorie [Kramer] and Dona of Houston and member Rhonda from Ft. Worth, as well as other local members of the Yahoo! based club for the taping of a story on Chemtrails and public concern over their purpose and health impact. Reporter Ron Travino and cameraman Nathan visited for several hours at the house of Lorie, taping, talking, asking questions, and viewing photos and videos.”

On chemtrailcentral, there’s actually a thread about the history of chemtrails. There, people give their recollections of how it all started. Most date it to late 1998 or 1999. A few people report earlier contrails (1989, 1991), and then surmise it must have stated earlier.

A post there by 3T3L1 quotes chemtrail debunker Jay Reynolds on the derivation of the word “chemtrails”. Posted on August 26, 2001 at 09:06:54 AM by Jay Reynolds was a statement by Val Valerian (pseudonym for Former USAF captain [John] Grace) in April 1999. “Grace/Valerian recognized that the power of suggestion worked against his claim and proposed coining a new term more suggestive of his claim.” That does not sound unreasonable, since the earliest reference to the word is April 1999. This page claims to be reporting from March 29th 1999, but could have been written after the fact, based on photos taken that day. It’s archived back to October 1999.

The original pages from Val Valerian/Valdemar Valerain/O.H. Krill/John Grace, can be found on archive.org. The earliest real mention of spraying on his pages dates back to emails on 13 Jan 1998. “John Grace is a UFO conspiracy theorist who published several books on shadow governments and suchlike. He also faked documents to support arguments in his books.”



This is an interesting interlude involving this “mention” of “chemtrails” in an episode of CSI.

I’m no fan of this series: I don’t believe the “science”, I don’t believe the timing, I don’t believe the “visualizations”, I don’t believe the camp crappiness of the script and the COLOR is an abuse to vision. It has the values of Star Trek Series 1.  Ug.

The HYPOCRISY mounted by the “brothers” is intense, approaches saturation, then exceeds it into supersaturation. I bet you thought it was only water that did that, but the bruvs don’t know about water – so they’re alone.

Someone who talks about chemtrails IS an “anti-american” & a “domestic terrorist” This had already become part of my thinking. It was EASY. I used LOGIC.
1. CNUTS offer NO sensible evidence that chemtrails exist. They are therefore slandering hard-working innocent people from airport aprons to executive boardrooms.
2. They use FEAR to condition people against the scientific truth of the matter in favor of lies which further their aims. TERRORISTS use fear to attain their objectives, too.
“Whether” – neither
“one day” – never
“ignore truth” – & b a CNUT
“u’re a disgrace” – to the Cosmos I apologize – 4 u
“to stupid” – 2 spell correctly?
“corruption” – “Power” started that 11000BC
“a great threat” – U aren’t 4 U know zip
“your caliber” – 50 cal long range sniper
“lies” – as in LIBRARY
“same ppl” – Yes. Ppl generally
“Your agenda” – I’m sorry – science is the reverse of what u suggest
“Gotta love manipulation” – Spk 4 urself
“understand(ing) is challenging” – How would U know?
@WellSightedGentleman – S.A.G. ops?
Ah – The “American Association for the Advancement of Science (AAAS) meeting held in San Diego February 18-22, and “a group of protestors” & “Could it be that one of these groups is being deceived?”
APOPHENIA was defined by Klaus Conrad in 1958 as the “unmotivated seeing of connections accompanied by a specific feeling of abnormal meaningfulness.”
The “group of protestors” must have been looking for the hospital…
Make shit up about a noisy ignorant rabble, won’t you?
CNUT wastrel..

@beachcomber2008 pop psychology is a real hallmark of the so-called enlightenment of your generation, isnt it?

beachcomber writes on YouTube from his fake chemtrail plane ufo fireball orb…  lol

@TrutherD1 “beachcomber writes on YouTube from his fake chemtrail plane ufo fireball orb… lol”
Yes, I do. Read it, watch it. Follow its links… 🙂
UFOs and fireballs I don’t deal with, except that I found “Piece for a Jigsaw” by Leonard G. Cramp to be (and remain) utterly fascinating
If by “fireballs” you mean STABLE PLASMA SPHERES or “ball lightning” then I AM very interested in that
My 2pworth, UFOs appear to be trans-substantial to me, and their physics unknown!
“PROTT” is an old SF story

@beachcomber2008 Ball lightning’s cool but I mean fireball meteor-UFOs, yes I agree made of energy or something… but seemingly intelligent. Check this out full screen and watch 9 of them fall


We should stop fighting and wake up… Thx for refs. @WSG I was only half-joking, I know you’re a skeptic of this stuff, so sorry to challenge your beliefs 😛

@TrutherD1 Oh dear, you made me waste some time
The first (“don’t tell me it’s an aircraft!”) – it’s an aircraft
The second (“note how the orb moves to tail”) – the “orb” is a HIGHLIGHT, and moving down the axis of polished cylinders and cones is EXACTLY what highlights do
ORBS, in these FAILED scenarios, are ALWAYS out-of-focus highlights
My physics teacher wife rates these as “U”
This failure is the stock-in-trade of 2nd Technician Rimmer of Red Dwarf
You know, the HOLOGRAM who killed the crew

@TrutherD1 @TrutherD1 oh rofl his response says it all. hahaha

remember the 5th of November

Hi guys. Hi beachcomber. *glare* 😛 As you were. In-sky’d job.

having watched this we can now see clearly how poor old beachcomer2008 who suffers life altering apophenia is easliy triggered amd ‘programmed’ by the MSM to respond as he does. I believe he actually feels CSI is right on the money here, like so many television addicts he doesn’t have a clue about what’s going on outside, he gets his frivolous opinions from subversive programs such as this. We simply ‘protest’ Geoenigeering & are not terrorists. Giveup TV beachcomer2008 save us your delusion.

@WellSightedGentleman I could not have said this better myself. Please, do not let these TROLLS get the better of you. You are a strong being with so much knowledge. The TROLLS only try to bring you down… I say NAY NAY….. damn them – and please continue telling them off. BRAVO for you… Tell the trolls to read the document I posted -The Regulation of Geoengineering, UK House of Commons, Science and Technology Committee-Chances are no one will,  far too brain dead from fluoride poisoning.

Hi, usual suspects, talking dirty again
By “dirty”, I mean without a clue as to the science & logic of what you’re talking about, telling lies about people you don’t know, who possess boots you aren’t worthy to lick. THAT sort of “dirty”
The GAP that you see before a trail begins tells you there are NO metals present, for if there were, they’d SHOW in that gap
AFTER the turbine, where you INSIST there is a spray nozzle, the space is? fully occupied by a THRUST REVERSAL SYSTEM
Engines CAN’T SPRAY!

@beachcomber2008 those who have studied enough of the nature of the dispersed particles, and literature, know that to ‘spray’ again, like the term ‘chemtrail’ is also only a common vernacula term that refers directly to the C.E ‘scattered’ particulates that are left in the emission trails(chemtrails) that persist enough to modify the atmospheric environs. Semantics are not enough of a divisive point to turn any who protest the S.A.G in the sky.
So do you like to lick the boots of elitists?

@WellSightedGentleman Aerosols are as old as the Earth
Recent studies show that 86% of airborne aerosols are natural
The remaining man-made ones are made by the power industry, manufacturing industry, travel (mostly road!) and farming
I AM an elitist in your terms
ANYONE who has passed his exams and is properly knowledgeable IS elite
That is what the word “elite” MEANS
I point that out to as a guide to a better way of life than the one you presently follow
So lick my, er, SANDALS, ignorant fuck!

@beachcomber2008 anyone who passes their exams, rofl, you really are ignorant.
so who do i lie about to whom thou are so worthy as to not lick their shoes, as you do?
Who are these ‘graduates’, that you think compose the elite in your small little world that i allegedly lie about?
Calling everyone CNUTS who do not accept your rubbish excuse for sound information sources, says everything about the caliber and quality of your education and frankly you fail. It speaks for itself. u disappointment

@WellSightedGentleman Not as disappointing as you, I think, who have no legitimate excuse for your behavior, calling science “rubbish” and believing that EDUCATED people are PROGRAMMED people
Your sorry campaign is a REACTIONARY effort against established science, and has NOTHING to replace it with except your own sorry ass
It only exists as a vehicle for your self-promotion
Your “newspeak” is something George Orwell never envisaged and would be horrified by
WSG = Mr. Magoo and as blind as a bat

@beachcomber2008 legitimate excuse, well we cant count on you to protect the marginalised innocent victems of the SAG can we?
you defend elitists who sponsor the S.A.G
But i support the position of holding those who scatter pollutants on purpose, 2 be held accountable now and into the future for what they’re doing. No regulation of climate engineering, an all out Bann is required, this is good enough “excuse” for publishing video evidence of what the british royal society says must be disclosed

so what
are people breathing? it can’t be too harmful, right?

youtube CSI Reptilians

Denying science is like self-denial
It’s a science-based world, unstably perched upon half-gone oil, where the oil is used to produce our food, not just get us about, and the world itself is hotting up
As the oil goes west, Africans will have the pleasure of watching us begin to look like they do, we’ll shrink in size and develop stick limbs and pot bellies, while the East will be entirely unaffected, and look on with horror
Science is the knowledge of the natural world
Reject it – and die

looking at the ratings, 72 thumbs ups, 2 thumbs down, those two would be beachcomer2008 and his sockpuppet which he uses to support his deluded paranoid notions.

waky waky, sheeples

Darn … if only one of this professor’s ‘conspiracy theories’ listed had been “propaganda placed in the mass media and television programs to control citizens thinking”, people may have clued in – well at least for a few minutes before the McDonald’s ads made them hungry.
however, there is always the rare chance that some people in media want to at least interject certain ideas into the mainstream. So they put them into shows but they labelled as wacky – but still, they are then planted into the public where they may cause more discussion.

@zetetic0void It’s just a dumb script where some scriptwriter (who wanted to get paid) managed to squeeze the topic in for a few seconds
A small opportunity to kick someone who cannot strike back – a popular sport
The fact that in this case it was someone WORTH kicking is completely accidental
If you believe otherwise, well, you WOULD, wouldn’t you?
You already believe a “military”-like campaign to control the weather is under way
All you needed was jet contrails and a stubborn denial of science

Amazing work, keep exposing more of this type of placement!

Wow those writers for that show are aware of the truth and evil

ohlol, soo hence being pro-american, means to accept things like chemtrails, tsunami bombs, and water flouridation. More than enough tests, conclusivly proving the S.A.G material is in our environment in abundance now, have been compiled, that talking point, like aluminium in drinking water, is moot. As for setting off explosives to cause tsunamis probably, its not an idea i have espouse. GreaT example of contempory newspeak.

There is an alternative to either “newspeak” or your SLUSHTHINK
If there were just an inkling of science in your bones you would KNOW that what you espouse reduces to nothing more than a bundle of pseudo-science, assumptions, misguided correlations and unqualified and uneducated personal testimony
Furthermore, they too frequently reduce to LIES and OUTRIGHT FRAUD. Shall I reel off three of them right now?
Some of you are ignorant, some malevolent, but ALL are despicable

Trying to control the sheeple again lol Hey x always marks the spot got loads of them 🙂

I almost flipped when I saw this. I liked CSI NY but I don’t think I will be watching it.

‘Head games’ at its most pernicious ! Great catch…TV sucks. 5’s

Yes, watch out for this propaganda and also watch out for Alex Jones. Anyone who tells you that it’s not at least partly a sunblock program is misleading you. People like AJ have an ideology that doesn’t allow for certain possibilities like global warming. AJ will do so much to discredit those who are interested in the truth with his endless speculation stated as fact.

@PURVASHADASTAR Andrew Johnson or Alex Jones? Both, actually
Believe it or not, scientists are ALSO interested in TRUTH
They don’t BELIEVE in science because it is a system of non-belief
A “LEAP” of faith is SPECIFICALLY DISALLOWED in science
Modern Science is MATHEMATICALLY based, generates HARD numbers, makes TRUE predictions, and is INFINITELY closer to reality than your endless & pseudoscientific speculation, also stated as fact
You are EXACTLY what you accuse others of being
Apophenia again.

@beachcomber2008 seeing as that you, are accusing everyone else of apophenia, it seems clear to us that it is in fact you who have that dreaded diseased condition. again, we are nothing but peaceful protestors of excessive pollution, we get used to disturbed accusatory character attacks such as you do..
realise you are really quite ethically corrupt
so how many people now have you accused of your own illness you poor sod?
we know
scientism is your religion,
when will you wakeup to that fact?

Not ODD, but a VICTIM
A victim of APOPHENIA, an obsessive disorder where the victim preserves an antisocial midset by IGNORING the reasons which don’t agree with his mindset
It sounds innocuous, but leads to behavior which damages all that person’s social relationships and may go on to damage others.
“As long as people believe in absurdities, they will continue to commit atrocities.” – Voltaire
It is absurd to assign meaning to Xing trails when 87,000 flights cross US skies EVERY DAY

@beachcomber2008 you propogate the same deluded alarmism as those who have produced this program. You lie about persistent contrails from the fifties and you know i know it! your wordpress dosuments are propogandist folly
You think you’re some kind of genius, what, as climate engineer?
or will you lie about that too?
One lie begets another and you’re not capable of telling the truth.
you’re a charlatan.

@WellSightedGentleman No, spit it out, get to the point….:)
Personally I DETEST CSI. I have just stopped the audio so as not to hear it
I think it’s vile and glib and I detest the altered color values too
The program is as natural as its color is. A grisly reverie of the American Dream with a set of values taken straight out of the first series of Star Trek
I think anyone who follows it to be defective in their scientific understanding, or just plain defective
What do YOU think?

Love it! propaganda on HIGH! he actually used “anti-American” and all those valid concerns in the same sentence. …This dude has no scruples to take part in this show with issues painted in such a way, none of these actors do in my opinion. Sold!


Persistent contrails are typically made of THIRTY-FIVE POUNDS OF ICE CRYSTALS PER YARD OF FORWARD FLIGHT, seeded? with microimpurities so dilute that if these crystals were melted they would easily pass a test for fresh water
That is what is found when scientists survey them. These surveys have been repeated EVERY DECADE since the fifties
Authorities will ALWAYS DENY doing something they haven’t actually done
Apophenics cannot handle this. Are YOU one?

What is the soundtrack??

Well caught…  Definitely something going on here…
The actors should be ashamed of themselves..   But they wont…

WOW! Water Flouridation: Is used in most U.S. Cities and that is an Indisputable fact. U.S. Patents can confirm that chemtrails have been used since Vietnam, hell, there’s even? a documentary on the affects of this method of cloud seeding. Tsunami Bombs? Haven’t heard that one. I doubt it exists. This is clearly “Propaganda Placement,” which is also documented. The fact that people call this conspiracy, is merely because they are ignorant. Not stupid, just ignorant.

@Pepsifx357 People who KNOW ANYTHING about fluoridation can SPELL the word
Patents confirm nothing
There’s a patent for a hotel on the Moon – why don’t you visit it?
Scotty can beam you there…
The collapse triggering energy to start a tsunami requires access to a position of maximum strain energy five to ten miles down? through solid rock
Scotty can place you there too…
Now, BACK TO REALITY – why don’t you WIKI “apophenia” and check out whether you’re not just ignorant, but mentally ill?

@beachcomber2008 Alright then,? all Tsunami crap that doesn’t exist aside, you tell me why over the past 20 years, airplanes have gone from short 1/4 mile long contrails, to long plumes that create clouds? Or why water FLUORIDATION is on a list on T.V. like it is some conspiracy theory?

@Pepsifx357 Since they started making large pressure cabins for airplanes, air travel has increased FIFTYFOLD, OR 5,000 %
As a child I saw persistent trails in the midfifties
Now there are FIFTY times more of them
As they all tend to fly through the same patch of air, releasing water, then they are also making the sky locally WETTER
Those plumes ARE clouds
But WETNESS is what the trails respond to, and are made of
At 35,000 feet & -40 degrees all “wetness” is ICE or VAPOR

@beachcomber2008 you deny the fact of aerosol pollution, advertant or not. the trails filmed throughout the internet are not occuring above 30,000 ft, rather they’re being emitted at the same height if not lower than general cloud height which is what?

@WellSightedGentleman Let’s assume your eyes ARE good, for a moment
How good is your sense of perspective?
You know that parallel lines converge to a single vanishing point?
You know that a 7 miles high trail CROSSES? THE HORIZON when it is TWO HUNDRED MILES AWAY?
You know trails GROW, SPREAD, and FALL two miles vertically downward before they evaporate beneath the tropopause?
You know that when they do so they are around FOUR MILES UP?
Aerosols in Earth’s air comprise 86% natural, 14% anthropic


Watch and pause on that time. Then tell me if you actually believe that 5 or more “passenger planes” all flew out that way only to turn back after realizing they had forgot to bring In-flight snacks, or if there may be something else going on.

Thank you Very well put together and pointing out a very disturbing fact about the media downmplaying our reality of CHEMTRAILS and that their are in the action to “condition” the public’s perception of this reality
great clip

The oil spill, created for many reasons. One in particular mentioned that I happen to agree with is that it not only controls the food supply but it also allows chemtrails to be sprayed without protests. The entire southeast will have to be evacuated within the next 3 to 6 months to the disaster relocation centers in Tennessee, Illinois, Missouri New York and Pennsylvania…  The influx of detainees will further strain the resources of the states and

“then those nice young men in their nice white suits came to take you away…
Away to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time..”
It was in the UK hit records once
You can’t catch ME out

@beachcomber2008 haha, I remember that song – we had this record of weird songs as a kid – Shaving Cream, Transfusion, The Streak..etc

@beachcomber2008 and you think there aint slush between your ears?
you’re a joke.
chemtrails conspiracy is aa overt media subterfuge program to sheild stratospheric aerosol geoengineering. Beachcopmer2008 like to think he drive the talking points, but he doesnt live under geoengineered skies. That why he has NEVER been able to demonstrate anything- to refute visual emperical evidence.

@WellSightedGentleman, must be a good vid if beachcomber2008 showed up! i wonder who faithinscience is now? ask beachcomber2008 for me why i see CONtrails daily now when i can see the blue skies when five years ago i would have to wait a week or 2 to see a “persistant contrail”! p.s. if he tells u something about increased jet travel just google: shrinking airlines to find the truth! BOOM BANG BOOM, eyes to the ground cause the show’s in the skies, right beachcomber?

@ar5281ar Haha. I just Googled “growing airlines” and what did I find? LOL
If you insist on disregarding true data, such as the easily-obtainable year-on-year air passenger travel statistics, and published science papers on the progressional development of aircraft contrails into cirrus clouds, then so be it, there’s nothing that can be done for you
It is YOU who is using FEAR as a way of suppressing reason, not I
It is YOU that holds to a belief which has no evidence to support it

@beachcomber2008 sounds like you’re getting hysterical, again. Please see a doctor.

@beachcomber2008 the great chemtrail debunker that is inspired by a failed magician that admits everything he has done in his life is to decieve people: James Randi! BOOOOM BANG BOOM, eyes to the ground because the real trick is in the sky isn’t it? what’s funny is all people have to do is observe daily to see the truth & your irelevant words. p.s. try some polarized sunglasses, they are a must!

@ar5281ar Way to quotemine. Be honest about the purpose of that quote. Randi says it to state the obvious – in other words the things magicians do on stage are illusions. Your framing of the quote shows dishonesty.

Sit down & be a good American. Drink your daily fluoride, Breath in your daily barium/aluminum fortified with morgellons fibers. remember fiber is good for You.
And make sure You are getting the recommended daily allowance of TV bullshit like CSI,  It keeps You in the matrix. Dont ever think out of the box that would be “Anti-American”. & lastly do the obama pledge & be a servant slave, It’s what You need to be a good American.

Well done – and I couldn’t agree with you more! Turn of the brainwashing machine aka television. I have posted a video response, and for those that still think chemtrails don’t exist, perhaps the document in this video will help them decide. It’s titled “The Regulation of Geoengineering”. The summary on page 3 admits outright that they have been spraying us, although on a small scale. My question is what do they call a large scale. They are looking at UN to monitor this project globally.

I donno what CSI is and I dont give a damn about that filthy TV all together, they make me sick to look at their ugly faces but the CSI eats shi*!
the bastards days are numbered.
all of them, from their bosses the dirty cheap pirates turn 2 bank robbers, down to their boot licking lowlife vultures… all of them,
the new world disorder bastards are going to be in bottom of hell soon.

Good job…
Perhaps someday we may actually reach through the fog that has been placed around many…  and have them actually see the reality that we live in…  not the false one that has been created to control us..
Then again…  perhaps…  we are the few…  that will forever see…  while the rest remain blind.
All we can do is try…  Thanks for making this…  Keep up the good fight!

you are being sprayed with massive amounts of fascist poison
they are spraying AGAIN today massively…just look up!
you are being sprayed with massive amounts of fascist poison

Damn those anti-florid terrorist! Everyone knows the US government cares about our teeth.

This is happening world wide by these sick cowards.
We need to find and prosecute these criminals.

Chemtrails are serious anti-life assaults on everything they infiltrate — which is US and our FOOD CHAIN. Chemtrails are making organic gardening/farming impossible… and setting the stage for ONLY GMO FOOD (corporate-controlled and sold… and NON-seeding for the future; you HAVE to BUY from them) This is as serious as it gets people.
Thank you for posting this CSI clip – what a crock.

google – “Atmospheric Aerosol Properties and Climate Impacts”

@UncleHempy Exactly!

“owning the weather in 2025” — google search for air force 2025

LOL… water flouridation is not a conspiracy theory, it’s completely admitted! Great job on this one, keep fightin the good fight.

@Sinpup79 Yeah, but your “Anti-American” and probably also an “Anti-Semite” if you don’t like the fact that this shit is put in your water supply… It is a drug, and it is put in your water supply, and you are Anti-American because you know this and don’t like it. It’s almost demoralizing to realize that they put this shit out there because the figure most of these monkeys walking around with fluoridated nervous systems don’t really even give a shit. Hilarious.

@wenaolong I am by no means anti-american, I am anti NWO, and that is not even to say that I don’t believe we should have a new world order, it is only to say that the NWO is being run by the same people who ran the old one… and where I live there is not flouride in my water supply. Neways, thanks for judging me based a short statment of fact that you tend to agree with…. weirdo 😛

@Sinpup79 As to the NWO position, I hold an identical one as far as that goes. It isn’t the newness that’s the problem, it’s the oldness of the “new” world order that is the problem. As to the fluoride, it’s in most places, especially MAJOR CITIES, where its effects are most important for control/disease infliction purposes. I didn’t judge you, the statements I made referred to a general condition of persons at this time, not directed at you. I’m weirder than you can imagine, in a good way.
Good luck, by the way. Make good choices and get good results, whatever those may be for you. I know I am doing so and will continue to. In your situation, whatever it may be, don’t waste your time fighting unwinnable wars, and you’ll be fine. In my case, I’ve already won, since I don’t unduly fear death, and I lust after joy. When you are motivated by fear, you’ve lost. Only when you are motivated by joy, is there anything worth winning. Peace in.

US Patent # 5,003,186 should convince all but those who choose to “see no evil” that chemtrails are a real phenomenon.

@whole2th Score one for U.S. Patents! They’ve been using chemtrails since Vietnam.

@whole2th Hughes Aircraft Patent # 5,003,186. Weather modification, chemtrails. Stratospheric Welsbach seeding for reduction of global warming. A method is described for reducing atmospheric or global warming resulting from the presence of heat-trapping gases in the atmosphere.

@Spright0 20080270152 Patent Trolling Application – by Halliburton
Yes – this Application, by a Halliburton Patent Attorney, seeks a Patent for “Patent Acquisition and Assertion by a (Non-Inventor) First Party Against a Second Party”.
So troll away
You’re on borrowed time

@beachcomber2008 how dare you call me names old man

@Spright0 Are you a CNUT? All you need do is learn to understand what science is. Then there’s NO possibility of your remaining a CNUT
I mean, it’s a bit CNUTTY to believe you can spray biological material through a high-pressure flame at 2,400 degrees F and expect it to survive
They don’t believe this in hospitals
And metals in flames MAKE COLORS – is the Firework Industry wrong?
And billions of tons of these metals have been “sprayed”
But they’re NEVER found in air samplers?
“CNUTS” rings true

@beachcomber2008 this isn’t going no where have you missed one of your tv shows today? why you picking an argument with everyone all souls have their own beliefs you aint nobody to tell us what to believe in i say fuck it we all are breathing it in watch the animatrix old one and you’ll see chemtrails in there you a pro american thats your belief i dont care i don’t know you but when the time comes you’ll regret everything right now your living you life as lie gizzer

@Spright0 U izz de lie gizzer, & I argue with CNUTTINESS. I wouldn’t piss on a CNUT if his pants were on fire, and as they always lie, their pants are always burnin’, burnin’
Beliefs are held without evidence. That’s what a belief is – something which requires no evidence to support it
I hold to NO belief – only to facts with supporting evidence
Slandering ANYONE without any supporting evidence is a moral and an ethical crime, and also a criminal offence
Stupidity and idleness are NO defense

@beachcomber2008 slandering who?
is your apophenia playing up again?
you may need to see a doctor.

@WellSightedGentleman I see your astroturf account has temporarily depleted itself
Slandering me and other hard-working people
I hope by “tsu specialist” you meant oriental antiques or breeding dogs
because your “aluminum particulates are biological” smear becomes more plausible
Where are these particulates emitted from?
Why aren’t they visible in the trail gap?
How does the finely-divided biological material survive the 2,400 deg F flame?
If you cannot show HOW they are delivered
Do they EXIST?

@beachcomber2008 you’re the fool whose stating that biological agents are being dispersed – though there are patents to freeze dry biological agents into nano particles – this is not what im stating.  you smear yourself saying so, ive stated over and again that theyre scattering what they say they are, alumina Al2So3.
A TSU specialist works in an operating theater, we eliminate biological agents, creating an aseptic environment.
Along your track of thought seems you deny agent orange chemtrails also.
heh aluminium isnt a biological agent, just like you’re not a scientist. But i dont really need to point this out, its obvious
But then you are speaking for your very nieve view of established science, really you’re a fail,  just look at the above statement you’ve made, and you want to be perceived as credible?
the idea they’ve never found air sample is contrary to the truth, just like your silly assumptions that aluminium particulates are biological.
i was a tsu specialist.
@Spright0 nah they got a new dingbat on his account, or that ‘old codger’ is just having a meltdown.
probably the later, except that he’s adopting all of faithinsciences abusive tendancies and aggresive attitude. Seen it all before, these guys from ‘contrailscience’ have no argument whatsoever, though they continue to try shamelessly in the face of sound argument they cannot rebuke, good luck to them. I feel sorry for anyone who is uncritically sucked into their illusion.

@WellSightedGentleman copy that

Remember, CSI is only a fictitious show dealing with make believe crimes and make believe characters designed to disinform, distract , and steal our time away from discussing important matters such as why we are being bombarded everyday with chemical aerosol spraying and why do our governments allow poisons to be dumped in our drinking water?
As for fluoride being mentioned on the list of conspiracies, yes fluoride is a poison. Yeah lets put it in our drinking water eh? What a great idea and it must be good for your teeth too eh? Yeah it must be but who made that discovery, are you sure its good for you? Someone must have won a Nobel Prize for making this discovery? Where are the clinical studies and papers supporting this claim? The answer is…nowhere. A lot of countries have woken up to this blatant lie.
Are we really that stupid to keep falling for such blatant propaganda? Well, not all of us. I love the way they described how idiotic it is to mistake contrails for chemtrails when (because there is such a major and obvious difference between the two) it is technically impossible to get them confused! STEVEDIGIBOYtv may be spot on. Its bound to scare the crap out of any credible person daring to mention this controversial man made phenomenon and the stupidity of it.
I cant believe how desperate the authorities must be about keeping this criminal activity quiet! To use hollywood stooges (actors) to suck us into no longer believing what our own eyes see in the sky reeks of desperation. drmatt357 you would be surprised what goes on behind your back and the audacity of what our governments get up to.

I don’t know if I believe the chemtrail thing. Why can’t someone just capture some of this “trail” and analyze the contents. That would be easy and put an end to the discussion. I can’t believe that they’re crop dusting us without anyone checking these clouds. George Lopez can’t bang some broad without the entire world finding out but they can dust entire cities? I’m suspicious!

@drmatt357 it has been analyzed by news channel 4 look up chemtrails in the news. it contains aluminum, barium, arsenic and other chemicals.

@drmatt357 the elite want people to be distracted with unimportant issues like George Lopez banging some ho so they don’t focus on important issues that matter….Keep us focusing focusing on these dumb fucking celebrities instead of really serious issues.

@drmatt357 Hello friend the government calls it GEOENGINEERING, they admit it now. So there is no reason to believe anything. Go to COuncil on Foreign Relations website and search: GEOENGINEERING and watch the entire conference on it. Just because it’s not on cnn or fox doesn’t mean it’s real. WAKE UP your reality has been distorted by the controlled media.

@drmatt357 Yes, chemtrails have been declassified and confirmed. Everyone said ppl that believed in chemtrails were CRAZY, LOONS, and PARANOID NUTS! They’ve been chemically analyzed, and it’s true, chemtrails have been real this whole time. For all those YEAR AND YEARS everyone called those that knew the truth crazy and now EVEN THE GOVERNMENT THEMSELVES have admitted to spraying barium, titanium, aluminum, and tons of other crap into the air out the back of jets in the name “secret climatology”

@drmatt357 News 4 in Los Angeles did a story about chemtrails in San Bernadino County and they interviewd goverment officials who claimed that the strange substance was actually pollen. The investigator sent the sample to a lab and they discovered among other chemicals Barium. Even more damning to the goverment officials that claimed it was pollen was the fact that no organic material was found by the lab. There were dozens if not more witnesses to this.

@drmatt357 “Just look at us. Everything is backwards; everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, universities destroy knowledge, governments destroy freedom, the major media destroy information and religions destroy spirituality” – Michael Ellner

It’s been done many times the info is out there, just look!
1st water vapor melts as the jet fly’s over I’m sure you’ve seen it.
Chemtrails do not melt and have been recorded over a 100 miles? long I’m sure you’ve seen that too.
There is a difference Oh and I see a video link to right of screen I’m sure you see that as well.
Wake up ! how long can this ignorance continue on so many levels

@readmuch How did I miss you?
“1st water vapor melts” STEAM IS “water vapor”. When it exhausts it cools from 1100 to -40 deg C and FREEZES to very fine ice crystals and microspherules of water
If the air has a high and competing water vapor pressure then CRYSTALS they will remain at such a temperature – or in your pseudoscience gibberish
“Chemtrails do not melt”
“Wake up ! how long can this ignorance continue on so many levels”
I agree, but for different reasons
Our search techniques differ, too

I don’t know probably when they were passing out BRAINS you chose EGO. I’ve watched this crap going on for over 10 years and listened to rhetoric such as yours as well. Your words mean nothing when common sense is all it takes to know the subject matter at hand. There is plenty of proof to show that your explaination is full of holes so don’t waste my time with your BS. Massage your intelligence with those who are not aware, there are plenty to choose from.

@readmuch Sadly for you, the “rhetoric” is SCIENCE

Same to you, for ignoring the SCIENCE that prove’s the falsehoods of your beliefs.
A cup 1/2 full seems to be a better way to look at things for me as I discover so many lies perpetuated and propagadized through avenues of deciet, so many believe in as it is I have no interest in educating anyone when multitudes of info is available to us all.
Taking advantage is a choice – or not!

@readmuch You guys exhibit the very behavior you accuse others of, and give yourselves a name the exact opposite of what you are
Also you can’t spell, and write with single figure ages and IQs
You in particular DON’T read much, which is why you call yourself READMUCH
Telling lies comes easy to you too, which probably explains why you cannot spot them either as you “seek” the “truth”
“All that glisters is not gold” Have fun with the iron pyrites, it’s for you
proves, propagandized, deceit – 😦

Mirror mirror on the wall who’s the fairest of them all.
You love to point the finger LOL what a waist of my time you are!
Good God 🙂 look at the time you have spent with so many others throwing out slanderous comments. WOW, how sad.
This started from your attack, prostituting your ideals of BS looking for attention suffering from mad blindness/reason, I’m sorry but you must be very lonely.
I’ve read plenty you clearly have not.
Be sure and proof read my spelling LOL

@readmuch NO
YOU started the attack
An attack on TRUTH
An attack on professional people in a professional industry
An attack designed to boost your self-image and self-esteem
An attack you believe to be without risk to yourself
How hypocritical
LIFE is a zero-sum game
When you take away HONESTY
Then a DISHONEST life will be your reward
and a death with DISHONOR will be its close

@beachcomber2008 yeah right, a ‘secret’ professional industry that maintains gagg orders to protect the public from the obvious public health risk aerosol dispersal imposes.
So you are resorting to threatening people now, how ‘professional’
Arguing with you is a condescension on our part.
You wants some truth dewd:
You’ll be licking the filthy feet of plutocrats for the rest of you existence.
threatening people, how civil, perhaps you hook up the trailer and hit the road pal.
abuse deserve ban

@WellSightedGentleman I need do nothing – it is your own behavior which threatens you
Life is important to each of us, for we only get one shot at it
Ignorance of what you do will NOT serve as a defense, and
responsibility for what you do, you will be unable to evade
You have NEVER stated HOW alumina gets “sprayed” by engines
because you DON’T KNOW. Nor does anyone! How is it done?
Tell this gas turbine expert how it’s done, bozo
“Somehow” doesn’t cut it
Nor does changing the subject to ORANGE

@beachcomber2008 so im lying about the gas turbine industrialists am i?
As is MSM reports, publications from the UK House of Commons, Science and Technology Committee – the royal society declares disclosure!
Scroll down and see i already stated that particulates, dry, need not be sprayed, rather scattered. The ‘somehow’ is fairly straight forward with a little know-how. As an engineer, i thought you’d have a greater insight into the possibilities of inovation, but clearly you only echo mainstream

@WellSightedGentleman Of course, I see it now, SCATTERED, not SPRAYED
then like Kevin,”it only proves you to be a little ODD”
Do you suppose that fanjets look that way because they’ve a
little team of Irish navvies shovelling nano-aluminum out of the back?
They must be shovelling out all the time – it could be that when they get tired
THAT’s when you get a gap in the trail
Scatter, eh, and that scattering creates the persistent trails, does it?

@beachcomber2008 well if you had’nt spent all your time on the ytube trying to attack individuals for sharing this information but had read only ONE of the published documents that details the activities of the S.A.G ops you may not look so ignorant now. Of course you are not a conspiracy theorist, but you allegations are misplaced, why terrorise us – we only inform.
You are not very creative for an engineer, but i? guess most of you are just glorified maintanece men, only the few actually invent

your delusional everything you say is directed right back at you the true hipocrite, it’s laughable so blow it out your ass moron.
It’s amazing that only those you believe to be professional are! LOL stop it quit waisting my time your almost freaky.
I never welcomed your OPINION and never asked for it, so GO AWAY – LOL
Thank you 4 your example of lunacy and how much more I will reject democratic ideology of shove it down your throat. F O

@readmuch I am here to say that this grim TV series is accidentally CORRECT when it says you are “conspiracy theorists”
But that is to give you all FAR too much credit
Your “strategy” is to pitch an argument with a slight technical advance on what you believe the public thinks, and then call ANY expert you confront an agent of the conspiracy itself
I get it, we ALL understand it
In fact you will adopt ANY action which produces “greater results”, won’t you?
And THAT behavior of yours PWNS you

@beachcomber2008 all the information reiterated thoughout these videos is published through the MSM and official publications from those seeking to regulate and control the current S.A.G operations, not a ramshakled one off websites that invent their own apologetics for the immense atmospheric destruction created by the aviation industry. You can publish anything on wordpress, doesnt make it established, just as anyone can create an anonymous website and propogate anything they like

“You can publish anything on WP”
Yes, indeed. And for NOTHING, to boot
“immense atmospheric destruction created by the aviation industry” is an assertion which isn’t borne out by ANY EVIDENCE, fortunately for the rest of us
I invite any1 curious to use the relevant search words and ADVANCED SEARCH & “-chemtrail -spray -aerosol -nwo -conspiracy” to filter out CNUT crap and leave you with meaningful & serious science research info
IF I were just a normal guy I’d use WP.. 🙂

@beachcomber2008 …as you claim to be an expert in jet engines, perhaps you can be useful and share with us the nature of the jet fuel Stadis 450, maybe you could explain why it isnt sold anywhere else than in the US? maybe discuss the ‘trade-secret’ compounds within it?
Yes people need to become aware of the terrible pollution that the aviation idustry is creating, that industry is one of the most unregulated in the world.
Airlines, unlike us ‘normal’ folk dont pay tax on the fuel they use

Stadis 450?
If you weren’t a moron you’d see that Stadis stands for
STAtic DIScharge” and is a clever way of rendering the fuel electrically-conductive and therefore unable to develop high voltages and sparking across pump nozzles on hot dry airport aprons
Unfortunately for you (again!) it’s a SAFETY FEATURE obviously used by the elite to make sure they don’t die, and really useful to Americans, especially in the desert belts of the US
Incidentally useful to the rest of us

@beachcomber2008 so you dont know what they put in it then…
some expert

@WellSightedGentleman Whatever the organic compound is, it has the ability to conduct electrons down its length. Colloidal graphite would work, for instance. As it has to pass through the engine it should combust to GAS and not to SOLIDS. It’s not important to me, 4 it is a TRACE compound used in small quantities, Redex is similar in gasoline. I’m no expert on that either. 🙂
I believe we’re ALL sufficiently expert to know that “Stadis” is a timewaster for you
so find something else, Eccles

Wow! It is incredible to see people of your caliber take advantage of the freedoms of speech to perpetuate lies created by the same people who created the word conspiracy theorist in the 1st place. Your agenda can only be to keep others as ignorant as possible to be sure and walk your walk. (Hitler comes to mind but only from the official story you bank your life on and that’s another issue.) Gotta love manipulation and you ware it well. To understand that, is very challenging
This video must have extreme truth to it for you to want to gain so much attention on it with so many others. I suppose they could take it down which I have seen them do many X’s with other videos but from a different view it would be better to allow this BS to go on in hopes it is not given a chance for others to know of the corruption going on right over our heads. Most are to ignorant to want to know, those of us whom have come out of the box are a great threat to the establishment.
Whether you’re a part of the problem of officialdom through Illuminate or secrete societies to better their interests, I don’t really give a damn. I would only hope that one day you might pay a heavy price for helping to ruin the lives of millions and mother nature/earth herself.
If you want to ignore the truth as the writers of this program have while bringing the issue to the forefront. Then you are a disgrace to all of humanity.
I will not believe you are to stupid to know.

@drmatt357 They have, of course
Several times since the 1950s
jazzroc.wordpress.com “A SINGLE LONG-RANGE FLIGHT AND AN OCEAN LINER!” links to a paper where ground- and satellite-based LIDAR was used to provide physical and chemical analysis of specific identified PERSISTENT trails left by commercial passenger aviation schedule flights. It found the trails to comprise THIRTY-FIVE POUNDS OF ICE CRYSTALS PER YARD OF FORWARD FLIGHT, seeded with microimpurities so dilute as to pass for fresh water

@drmatt357 there have been people who have had its contents analyzed. i have a video of a local news channel who reports their findings on it. ima post it when i find it

@drmatt357 Scientists did, back in ’53
& then again & again up to the present
After they did this they ALWAYS wrote a paper about it too
The thing is, CNUTS cannot find these papers because they DO NOT WISH to find them, & LACK THE WIT to find them
Scientists, being normal, don’t
SO you use ADVANCED SEARCH and the EXCLUDE words facility, into which you stuff all those “chemtrailer” DIRTY words
And Robert is your father’s brother

Black is white, up is down, now wash your prozac down with your beer and vote for your favorite idol.

As well as branding the term chemtrails (not geoengineering) in this episode for average peeps think of the fear it puts in professionals thinking of going public or even discussing it. That may be the ultimate purpose,

@STEVEDIGIBOYtv Whenever you look for confirmation of a theory that you hold yet ignore, or fail to find, DISCONFIRMATORY EVIDENCE, then you proceed down a path of foolishness and pseudoscience. NO professional thinker, be he an architect, engineer, biologist, chemist, physicist or mathematician would EVER make such a serious mistake. It’s a scientific world we live in, and its collapse beneath the crushing weight of scientific ignorance and antiscience which you profess would certainly kill you

More propaganda…  we know the truth ass holes.

G’day from Melbourne Australia. The media are doing the same downunder.. every reality show you see or advertising that has sky in the background is mostly full of chemclouds but they never mention them. Even our radio stations bring out the spin doctors when concerned citizens ring them reporting horizon to horizon chemtrails. Good luck to you all trying to alert media or authorities!

If this isn’t the most obvious brainwashing, …. wow hahahah maybe some sheeple will look into it… nahh.

Great video and nice exsample how they programe people

Thanks for posting this vid. Wow, first time that I’ve heard the word Chemtrail on TV and main stream too.

Glad I do not have cable, glad you made this great clip!

Wow, and they even got some Apple product placement in with the iTampon, I mean iPad…. today Van was HAMMERED with chemy’s… it would have been an AWESOME day had it not been dumped on …sigh

OMG – yeah you fully right !!!

Global Dimming

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Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page… 



The 300 million tons of aviation kerosene burnt annually make up just 3% of the world total anthropogenic combustion, and hence makes up only a thirtieth part of global warming and dimming.

In general, it is CARBON DIOXIDE that contributes to global warming and PARTICULATES and WATER that contribute to global dimming.

So there is a risk that as we clean up our combustion activities we will INTENSIFY global warming.

But aviation plays only a THREE PER CENT part in all of this.


And maybe this is a solution to global warming:




No doubt you’ve seen “An Inconvenient Truth” and some of the MYTH counterclaim videos that have been out and about.

Well, perhaps it’s time you studied what the UK Meteorological Office has to say about it. You can spend your time at leisure over the graphs and charts and not be rushed onwards by a commentator inside a video. It’s a good idea to EXPAND EVERY IMAGE.

Or you could consider what wonderingmind42 has to say, here:

It is well worth reading the notes that accompany this, and following up many of his other videos.

Perhaps then you’ll agree that Global Warming is NOT myth. Or read on…

If you don’t, then maybe you have a religion with pseudo-scientific postulates – or dyslexia – or maybe you need to read on…


On the left is a photograph of Muir Glacier taken on August 13, 1941, by glaciologist William O. Field; on the right, a photograph taken from the same vantage on August 31, 2004, by geologist Bruce F. Molnia of the United States Geological Survey (USGS).


 Now you could say these glaciers are selected because they are receding. So here is a table of glacier lengths for sixteen more glaciers, showing in every case a dramatic shrinkage since the industrial revolution. “Sometimes they have increased” I hear you say. But what is the trend?

As they shrink, they are cooling the Earth, but once they have disappeared, they won’t be doing that, will they?

Not only that, but they had a high albedo, reflecting incoming solar radiation back into space. The low-albedo rock they reveal, on the other hand, will not reflect this radiation, which will add to Earth’s solar heating. It may be one of our many “tipping points”, NONE of which we should desire to test, for we are in this test tube.



Human-Induced Climate Change – a Load of Hot Air

Ian Plimer is currently Professor of Mining Geology at the University of Adelaide. He was previously a Professor in the School of Earth Sciences at the University of Melbourne. He is also a prominent member of the Australian Skeptics. He was awarded the Clarke Medal by the Royal Society of New South Wales in 2004. 


Yes. Yes, I go with this antipodean gentleman. And with the gent who finishes this chapter. GW is bullshat upon….

Charlton Heston died not long ago. Here is what he has to say about Man and the Earth.

And here is another viewpoint, “Life After People”:



The following is an article I’ve discovered which addresses ALL the main the main points of the AGW argument and demolishes them one-by-one. From:

 “Watts Up With That?”: http://wattsupwiththat.com/2009/05/24/disproving-the-anthropogenic-global-warming-agw-problem/#more-7993

Disproving The Anthropogenic Global Warming (AGW) Problem – Leonard Weinstein, ScD – April 25, 2009

(Leonard Weinstein received a B.Sc. in Physics in 1962 from Florida State University. He started work at NASA Langley Research Center in June 1962. While at Langley, Leonard obtained his Master and Doctor of Science degrees in Engineering from the George Washington University. He continued to work at NASA Langley until June 2007, ending as a Senior Research Scientist. Dr. Weinstein has had a career that is recognized for innovation. He has over 90 publications, including 11 patents. He has received numerous awards, commendations, and recognitions for innovative experimental research, including an Exceptional Engineering Achievement Medal, an IR-100 award, the 1999 American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) Engineer of the year, the James Crowder Award, and over 40 other awards and recognitions for innovative experimental research. Dr. Weinstein is presently a Senior Research Fellow at the National Institute of Aerospace.)

A theory has been proposed that human activity over about the last 150 years has caused a significant rise in Earth’s average temperature. The mechanism claimed is based on an increased greenhouse effect caused by anthropogenic increases in CO2 from burning of fossil fuels, deforestation, cement manufacture, and also from increases in CH4 from farm animals and other causes. The present versions of the theory also include a positive feedback effect due to the increased temperature causing an increase in water vapor, which amplifies the effect. The combined result are used to claim that unless the anthropogenic increases of CO2 are slowed down or even made to decrease, there will be a continuing rapid increase in global temperature, massive melting of ice caps, flooding, pestilence, etc.

In order to support a theory, specific predictions need to be made that are based on the claims of the theory, and the predictions then need to happen. While the occurrence of the predicted events is not proof positive of a theory, they increase the believability of the claims. However, if the predictions are not observed, this tends to indicate the theory is flawed or even wrong. Some predictions are absolute in nature. Einstein’s prediction of the bending of light by the Sun is such a case. It either would or would not bend, and this was considered a critical test of the validity of his theory of general relativity. It did bend the predicted amount, and supported his theory.

Many predictions however are less easily supported. For example weather forecasting often does a good job in the very short term but over increasing time does a poor job. This is due to the complexity of the numerous nonlinear components. This complexity has been described in chaos theory by what is called the butterfly effect. Any effect that depends on numerous factors, some of which are nonlinear in effect, is nearly impossible to use to make long-range predictions. However, for some reason, the present predictions of “Climate Change” are considered by the AGW supporters to be more reliable than even short-term weather forecasting. While some overall trends can be reasonably made based on looking at past historical trends, and some computational models can suggest some suggested trends due to specific forcing factors, nevertheless, the long-term predicted result has not been shown to be valid. Like any respectable theory, specific predictions need to be made, and then shown to happen, before the AGW models can have any claim to reasonable validity.

The AGW computational models do make several specific predictions. Since the time scale for checking the result of the predictions is small, and since local weather can vary enough on the short time scale to confuse the longer time scale prediction, allowances for these shorter lasting events have to be made when examining predictions. Nevertheless, if the actual data results do not significantly support the theory, it must be reconsidered or even rejected as it stands.

The main predictions from the AGW models are:

1. The average Earth’s temperature will increase at a rate of 0.20C to 0.60C per decade at least to 2100, and will continue to climb after that if the CO2 continues to be produced by human activity at current predicted rates.

2. The increasing temperature will cause increased water evaporation, which is the cause for the positive feedback needed to reach the high temperatures.

3. The temperature at lower latitudes (especially tropical regions) will increase more in the lower Troposphere at moderate altitudes than near the surface.

4. The greatest near surface temperature increases will occur at the higher latitudes.

5. The increasing temperature at higher latitudes will cause significant Antarctic and Greenland ice melt. These combined with ocean expansion due to warming will cause significant ocean rise and flooding.

6. A temperature drop in the lower Stratosphere will accompany the temperature increase near the surface. The shape of the trend down in the stratosphere should be close to a mirror reflection of the near surface trend up.

The present CO2 level is high and increasing (http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/). It should be fairly easy to show the consequences of AGW predictions if they are valid.


Figure 1. Global average temperature from 1850 through 2008. Annual series smoothed with a 21-point binomial filter by the Met Office.


It should be noted that the largest part of the last 150 year increase in CO2, which is blamed on human activity, did not occur until after 1940, so the largest temperature rise effects should have occurred in that time. The proponents of AGW have generally used the time period from 1970 to 2000 as the base line for an indicator of the rapid warming. In that base line period, the average temperature rose about 0.50C, which averages to 0.160C per decade. The claim was then made that this would accelerate due to continuing increases in CO2 level. However if we look at the temperature change from 1940 through 2008, the net increase is only 0.30C. This is due to a drop from 1940 to 1970 and a slight drop from 2000 through 2008. Now the average rise for that period is only 0.040C per decade. If the time period from 1850 through 2008 is used as a base, the net increase is just under 0.70C and the average rise is also 0.040C per decade! It is clear that choosing a short selected period of rising temperature gives a misleading result. It is also true that the present trend is down and expected to continue downward for several more years before reversing again. This certainly makes claim 1 questionable.

The drop in temperature from 1940 to 1970 was claimed to have been caused by “global dimming” caused by aerosols made by human activity. This was stated as dominating the AGW effects at that time. This was supposed to have been overcome by activity initiated by the clean air act. In fact, the “global dimming” continued into the mid 1990’s and then only reduced slightly before increasing more (probably due to China and other countries increased activity). If the global dimming was not significantly reduced, why did the temperature increase from 1970 to just past 2000?
A consequence of global dimming is reduced pan-evaporation level. This also implies that ocean evaporation is decreased, since the main cause ofocean evaporation is solar insolation, not air temperature. The decreased evaporation contradicts claim 2.

Claim 3 has been contradicted by a combination of satellite and air born sensor measurements. While the average lower Troposphere average temperature has risen along with near ground air temperature, and in some cases is slightly warmer, nevertheless the models predicted that the lower troposphere would be significantly warmer than near ground at the lower latitudes, especially in the tropics. This has not occurred!

The following is a statement from: Synthesis and Assessment Product 1.1
Report by the U.S. Climate Change Science Program and the Subcommittee on Global Change Research – April 2006 – “While these data are consistent with the results from climate models at the global scale, discrepancies in the tropics remain to be resolved”.

Claim 4 implies that the higher latitudes should heat up more than lower latitudes. This is supposed to be especially important for melting of glaciers and permafrost. In fact, the higher latitudes have warmed, but at a rate close to the rest of the world. In fact, Antarctica has overall cooled in the last 50 years except for the small tail that sticks out. See:
Greenland and the arctic region are presently no warmer than they were in the late 1930’s, and are presently cooling! See:
The overall effect of Antarctic and Greenland are now resulting in net gain (or at least near zero change) of ice, not loss. While some small areas have recently lost and are some are still losing some ice, this is mostly sea ice and thus do not contribute to sea level rise. Glaciers in other locations such as Alaska have lost a significant amount of ice in the last 150 years, but much of the loss is from glaciers that formed or increased during the Little Ice Age, or from local variations, not global. Most of this little ice age ice is gone and some glaciers are actually starting to increase as the temperature is presently dropping. For more discussions on the sea level issue look at the following two sites:

This indicates that claim 5 is clearly wrong. While sea level will rise a small amount, and has so since the start of the Holocene period, the rise is now only 10 to 15 cm per century, and is not significantly related to the recent recovery from the little ice age, including the present period of warming.
The claims in 6 are particularly interesting. Figure 2 below shows the Global Brightness Temperature Anomaly (0C) in the lower Troposphere and lower stratosphere made from space.
a) Channel TLT is the lower Troposphere from ground to about 5 km
b) Channel TLS is the lower Stratosphere from about 12 to 25 km


Figure 2. Global satellite data from RSS/MSU and AMSU data. Monthly time series of brightness temperature anomaly for channels TLT, and TLS. Data from: http://www.ssmi.com/msu/msu_data_description.html

The anomaly time series is dominated by ENSO events and slow troposphere warming for Channel TLT (Lower Troposphere). The three primary El Niños during the past 20 years are clearly evident as peaks in the time series occurring during 1982-83, 1987-88, and 1997-98, with the 1997-98 being the largest. It also appears there is an aditional one at 2007. Channel TLS (Lower Stratosphere) is dominated by stratospheric cooling, punctuated by dramatic warming events caused by the eruptions of El Chichon (1982) and Mt Pinatubo (1991). In these, and other volcanic eruption cases, the increased absorption and reflectivity of the dust and aerosols at high altitudes lowered the surface Solar insolation, but since they absorbed more energy, they increased the high altitude temperature. After the large spikes dropped back down, the new levels were lower and nearly flat between large volcanic eruptions. It is also likely that the reflection or absorption due to particulates also dropped, so the surface solar insolation went back up. It appears that a secondary effect of the volcanic eruptions is present that is unknown in nature (but not CO2)!

One possible explanation is a modest but long-term drop in Ozone. It is also clear that the linear fit to the data shown is meaningless. In fact the level drop events seem additive if they overlap soon enough for at least the two cases shown. That is, after El Chicon dropped the level, then Pinatubo occurred and dropped the level even more. Two months after Pinatubo, another strong volcano, Cerro Hudson, also erupted, possibly amplifying the effect. It appears that the recovery time from whatever causes the very slow changing level shift has a recovery time constant of at least several decades.
The computational models that show that the increasing CO2 and CH4 cause most of the present global warming all require that the temperature of the stratosphere drops while the lower atmosphere and ground heat up. It appears from the above figures that the volcanic activity clearly caused the temperature to spike up in the Stratosphere, and that these spikes were immediately followed by a drop to a new nearly constant level in the temperature.


It is clear from the Mauna Loa CO2 data http://www.esrl.noaa.gov/gmd/ccgg/trends/) that the input of CO2 (or CH4) from the volcanoes did not significantly increase the background level of this gas, and thus this cannot be the cause of the drop in the stratospheric temperature.

The ramp up of atmospheric CO2 also cannot explain the step down then level changes in high altitude temperature. Since the surface temperature rise is supposed to be related to the Stratosphere temperature drop, and since a significant surface rise above the 1940 temperature level did not occur until the early 1980’s, it may be that the combination of the two (or more) volcanoes, along with Solar variability and variations in ocean currents (i.e., PDO) may explain the major causes of recent surface temperature rises to about 2002.

In fact, the average Earth temperature stopped rising after 2002, and has been dropping for the last few years!

The final question that arises is what prediction has the AGW made that has been demonstrated, and that strongly supports the theory. It appears that there is NO real supporting evidence and much disagreeing evidence for the AGW theory as proposed. That is not to say there is no effect from human activity. Clearly human pollution (not greenhouse gases) is a problem.

There is also almost surely some contribution to the present temperature from the increase in CO2 and CH4, but it seems to be small and not a driver of future climate.
Any reasonable scientific analysis must conclude the basic theory wrong!


“for the real answers” – I’m talking about your poor science and you’re off about the NWO!

“THEIR plan/agenda is simply for nuts” – I’m with you.

“JAZZROC IS A PLANT BY THE US”http://www.myspace.com/jazzroc

“GREAT SPIRIT—-CHARGE” – you left the planet here…

“you BELIEVE the OFFICIAL 911 COMMISSION report” – er, NO.

“unsuspecting masses” – I used to think that a bad thing, until I met the SUSPECTING MASSES.

“we been conditioned” – NO, UNEDUCATED and left in charge of a directionless mind…

“unravel this mess” – you couldn’t unravel a woolly jumper.

“Rise of the 4th Reich” – this would be a putsch by bankers (optional w).

“head these assholes off at the pass” – I had a sudden vision – never mind…

“Increased solar output” – NOT TRUE.

“The NWO” – probably YOUR b——-e.

“and don’t hand me that bullshite” – it’s all coming the other way.

“of course this is a perspective issue” – ain’t that the truth.

“they are formed right behind these craft” – I’ve never seen any AHEAD. (except for “black laser light” ones. 😀

“SNEAKY activity going on above” – make your mind, above, below, to one side, where? 



The STRATOSPHERE is a still and stable part of our atmosphere compared with the TROPOSPHERE, which is the part in which we live, and experience CUMULUS clouds, and rain and thunderstorms.

However there is such a thing as THE PREVAILING WIND which we experience at ground level. It is actually THE PREVAILING MOVEMENT OF THE COMPLETE ATMOSPHERE.

There are in the stratosphere layers of air with varying humidities which slither over each other with small relative motions and in so doing sometimes cause HIGH CIRRUS clouds, enabling you to see the relative motion. Otherwise YOU CANNOT SEE ANY MOTION OF THAT AIR BECAUSE ALL THESE LAYERS ARE TRANSPARENT. The motion relative to each other is technically LAMINAR motion – it is smooth and pretty frictionless, without turbulence, and quite unlike the troposphere beneath.

Anyway, imagine a SEQUENCE of aircraft flying (and throwing contrails) from A to B along the same overland line, which is NOT NECESSARILY in line with the prevailing atmospheric motion. Although they are flying THE SAME OVERLAND COURSE, what you’ll see is a SERIES OF LINES PARALLEL TO EACH OTHER as the atmosphere passes by.

Now imagine another contemporaneous SEQUENCE of aircraft flying (and throwing contrails) from C to D along another overland line at roughly RIGHT ANGLES to the first (they’d be assigned a different altitude) and you’ll get a RECTANGULAR GRID OF CONTRAILS IN THE SKY, as the prevailing movement of the atmosphere continues to bear them away. It’s easier to sketch this idea with a pencil than it is to describe it in words. You could imagine printing a letter X in the same spot, but the paper is being smoothly moved in one particular direction. You’ll always produce a grid.

There’s NO SPRAYING going on – just your regular passenger shuttle traffic, but on a day with a PARTICULARLY HUMID ATMOSPHERE.

Even on a clear blue sky day the air contains water. I looked out recently and it was such a sky, checked the Relative Humidity (65%) and in a minute or two had calculated that this CLEAR BLUE SKY contained within a radius of SIX miles and a height of FIVE miles THREE THOUSAND THREE HUNDRED TONS OF WATER. APPROXIMATELY!





This was research into the best means of defense against germ and toxic gas attack conducted in various parts of the south-west of England, in the light of a direct threat by the Soviet Union, immediately following the Second World War. The trials were conducted sporadically and secretly for twenty years (as far as released information tells us), involving up to ten small-scale experiments each year, under the auspices of Porton Down.

Atomized materials were dispersed from barges ten miles off-shore, vans travelling along country lanes, and a specially-converted Canberra twin-jet bomber flying at 2000ft.

The materials were water, killed and identifiable bacteria, and zinc cadmium sulfide powder.

Research has been carried out to determine whether there were  any identifiable cases of infection or poisoning occurring as a consequence of these trials, which may yet still be continuing. It found none.

It seems to me that there was (and is) a legitimate responsibility of any government to determine the best possible defense against attacks such as these, the risk of which has abated only little, since the breakup of the USSR.

Furthermore, the targeting of the Tube System in bomb attacks, and the Tokyo Subway System in a nerve gas attack, might well have increased such secret defensive activities of the British Government. A bloody good thing too…

Of course, a BETTER still defense approach might be to have BETTER relationships with the world’s peoples than that enjoyed at present.

We have failed to ensure this – it’s OUR responsibility.



A conversation with ICEWHALE re the Guardian story Oct 1 2008

promote the falsehood that the bacteria were somehow ‘marked’.


when faced with the possibility that you might be wrong

No chance.

you claim that such matters are irrelevant

I claimed your whole post was irrelevant, as this is.

you are in danger

Of dying of tedium only.

you are plain wrong

We’ll see… (yawns)

method of identification / radioactively-labelled antibody

Ah, the MARKER! A little titter runs across the room…

I must admit I have difficulty understanding this statement (inconsequential post hoc sophist) /  1949 – 1975

That’s because you ARE one. Inconsequential and mostly post hoc. 1975 being 33 years ago.

one scientist

That makes me wrong, then.

And your evidence for this claim is

The disappearance of the USSR, the Cold War, the Berlin Wall, er, HISTORICAL.

during a ‘crash programme’ corners are cut  / ‘old boys network’ / ethical concerns

Preparations for defence, war, deterrence? Best take a long time, eh? And lose like gentlemen coughing softly into our cravats…

It also occurred more recently / retrospectively

Tut, tut, such a rush…

the UK Government would

It would indeed. It has responsibilities.

puerile claims of ‘sophistry’ / harm to your case

You’re a lawyer? That could explain your sophistry. Not guilty m’lud.

exposed to appreciable doses

I’m sure the MARKER appreciated them.

their properties had been changed

Not sufficiently for the MARKER not to work, therefore not sufficiently for the body’s defences not to work, either.

capable of growth and causing disease

A property of many bacteria on your nose right now. Even as it lengthens…  (But not a property of the KILLED bacteria in question!)

pneumonias and sepsis in vulnerable people / capable of causing disease in immunocompromised people / human pathogen

Life’s a risky business, especially when it includes threatening enemies who make statements like “we will bury you”. That risk necessarily extends to the population when it enters the hideous equations of war. A finger hovered over the button on more than one occasion in the sixties.

But IN THIS CASE the KILLED BACTERIA would be NUTRITIOUS. Eat a piece of cheese, why don’t you?

massive bacterial aerosols in populated areas / significantly contaminated by an uncharacterised bacteria / refuse to rule out conducting future large-scale experiments / unable to confirm whether the public will receive prior warning

Yes. Tough aren’t they? WAR isn’t a tea-party, icewhale. If and when such a thing might begin, it might be considered practical to eliminate timewasting wiseacres like yourself, with a view to shortening the war.

But IN THIS CASE the KILLED BACTERIA would be NUTRITIOUS. Eat a piece of cheese, why don’t you?

The holding of such attitudes, icewhale, is a practical form of defence. It suggests to a putative enemy that it wouldn’t be nice to tangle with such a bunch of bastards. Nice guys get into wars which they then don’t win. I’m a pacifist myself, and I reckon Sun Tzu had it off pat when he suggested the same.

who can say that they weren’t involved in secretly spraying populated areas of the UK?

Who, indeed?

I hope you don’t waste any more of my time with paralogisms, casuistry, quibble, speciousness, and the meshes and cobwebs of sophistry…


 Global Warming Room 101

These are taken from the comments in the Daily Telegraph March 15th 2009, and reflects contention without facts, until the last…


How many other mainstream newspapers would print this. Good on you. All you have to do is listen to the remarks of the GW believers to expose it for what is really is – a Religion. Dissenters are silenced for example and any critisism is savaged as heresy. That’s not science, it’s religion.

The dream of an old man, who will die before he awakes.


In reality the scaremongers are wrong and we didn’t suffer a Katrina hurricane more often or every year as the scaremongers predicted. Algore predicted eleven years ago that “in ten years the levels of the ocean will rise enough to cover up small islands” but in reality no islands have been swallowed up and in fact because of volcanic activity there are more islands now than then.
I am all for doing what we can to stop pollution, real pollution. I believe in conservation and recycling. I don’t believe that global warming is a problem and I don’t believe that making CO2 a pollutant and trading it on the world market as a commodity will result in anything more than making a few rich people richer, like the oil speculators did last year. The oil speculators had to face reality when the price dropped off dramatically and many of them lost money which will stop them from doing it again, but there’s no reality check for this commodity called CO2 pollution.

“the most costly and economically-damaging package of measures ever imposed on mankind” – Whoa, just who is scaremongering here?

The really annoying thing about the whole debate is the Ecomentalists will always be right. Even if the Chris Bookers of the world are correct, and the world shows a net cooling trend, the Al Gore acolytes will claim that this is a result of their intervention.

The past two winters in Chicago have been among the coldest in the last 100 years. Where is Al Gore’s hot air when we need it?


We just enjoyed 8 feet of snow this winter. Last year we had the second highest snowfall since records have been kept. In the last two years it has snowed in Baghdad, Alabama, Georgia and other unlikely venues. All the while, the nattering nabobs continue to prattle on about “global warming” as if they don’t have access to the real world where the rest of us live. We can all agree that Al Gore is a true believer, as are most of Hollywood. Why then, have they not altered their behavior at all? Mr. Gore uses an astonishing amount of power. Hollywood has just finished its fourth or fifth major awards ceremony beamed to every household on the planet. Movies, sports, entertainment and the various other frivolities that make life enjoyable continue unabated, but we’re to believe there’s a crisis so immediate that if we don’t start sucking the CO2 from the atmosphere this instant we’re all going to stew in our own juices?

Simple reason. The Green Agenda is overwhelmingly dominated by Lefties. Since when has the Loony left ever embraced true scientific evidence, as opposed to populism and mass hysteria?

Why is the UK subject to social fads to the point of economic chaos. Is there a reason why global scaremongering has to be the politics of the 21st century?

I’m impressed with Steve’s withering sarcasm. After all, science gave us the atom bomb so if it’s ‘scientific’ it must be good, right? In my opinion there isn’t a shred of evidence to support the global warming theory. And are you people seriously proposing that we should all stop heating our homes in winter? Why not get worked up about real things like deforestation and dwindling fish stocks instead? If you really want to do something about the environment then campaign to change the insane ec regulations that currently cause thousands of tons of fish to be dumped at sea.

The irony of a climate change sceptic complaining about not being listened to, or an absence of serious debate is almost too funny for words. Perhaps Mr Booker might reflect on the thought that had there been less resistance and more serious debate 20 years ago we might not have reached the state of hysteria and scare-mongering we seem to be in now. People scream loudest just before the plane crashes!

Fascinating article, and worth reading in close detail.

Firstly the Heartland Institute is a lobbying group that fights any kind of regulation of big business, and plays pretty fast and loose with the truth. They are still claiming that evidence of harm from smoking is a conspiracy of doctors, campaigning that is well funded by tobacco companies, and that evidence for global warming doesn’t exist, again well funded by oil companies – all the time while claiming the scientific consensus is a conspiracy.
I’d like to know if they started the proceedings with an apology for last years “550 scientists who deny global warming”, which so completely misrepresented the real views of most of the scientists listed. A little masterpiece of dishonesty and misrepresentation – still being quoted by Charlie Booker.

Christopher, the reason that nobody in the media covered the Heartland Institutes conference, is that the “la la la, it’s not really happening” argument has been thoroughly discredited, and the institute is a rightwing thinktank wholly tainted by its vested interest in returning to the status quo and funding from interest groups like Exxon Mobile. Whereas Copenhagen was newsworthy as you have legitimate, qualified, impartial scientists at the top of their profession giving the latest updates and ideas. Hope this provides some (rather obvious) clarification.

Mr. Booker does a good job describing and distinguishing between the two conferences. Too bad that the discussion about the Heartland Institute meeting is on page 2 … at least a number of commenters read that far! I spent yesterday viewing the videos and reviewing the presentation material. Good food for thought. The reason the politicians have cranked up ‘Global warming’ is to stop the wealth transfer to Middle Eastern states. Pure & simple. The rise in Islamic banking and political influence has the west spooked, so we are now moving towards alternative energy. Expect BP and Shell to diversify in the coming years, probably buying banks or Energy utilities.

Christopher Booker: living in fantasy land. Luckily the shrill ravings of him and his ilk are being given less and less notice, as the rational majority favour evidence over conspiracy theories. He’s left telling us to ignore well-respected science academies from around the world while championing his pet free-market thinktank, the Heartland Institute.


Christopher, got one, even one, respected scientific institution that agrees with you? Of course not. Back to your shrill bleating and paranoia.

Whether Global warming is or isn’t true is pretty irrelevant. Surely the fundamental problem is the West’s reliance on oil. Scare mongering tactics are being used to reduce consumption/ encourage research into alternatives. Plus ca change.

Humans took all of history to reach a population level of around 2.5 billion just after WW2. Then in a mere 60 years or so since then that figure has almost tripled. There is the underlying reason for ALL our ecological and climatic problems. Anything we do will be a waste of effort against that stark fact.

It is so refreshing to be given a more balanced view on climate change after so much media and political hysteria.

Grateful American: “Americans are clearly no longer the worst-educated Westerners” – Overpaid, Oversexed, Over here! and now Over-educated, if you please!

Wow, a whole half-million dollars? That kinda pales into insignificance against the cost of the Copenhagen conference, doesn’t it? and didn’t Al Gore spend $4 million dollars on his waterside home in San Francisco [note the waterside bit]? That from his earnings from the “ludicrous and entirely inaccurate” [according to the High Court, not me] film and his carbon trading company, and just how much is made from carbon trading, and how much is “invested” in the various academics making a nice living thanks to this arrant nonsense. Do any of the supporters know how much [or rather how little] CO2 there actually is in the atmosphere ? No I thought not – they never do. Though I suspect Professor Lindzen does. Its about 0.035%.

This the same Heartland Institute who have received over half a million dollars funding from ExxonMobil? Not that I’d suggest that that has anything to do with their stance. Just like the money they receive from the tobacco industry has nothing to do with their stance against legislation on smoking.

In his book “Red Hot Lies” the author Christopher Horner describes how global warming alarmists use threats, fraud and deception to keep you misinformed. In this book the following is a quote made by Mr George Monbiot, that Environmental Guru: “Every time someone dies as a result of floods in Bangladesh, an airline executive should be dragged out of his office and drowned” (page 69). Mr Monbiot calls this irony.
The alarmists wish to stifle dissent. The question should be asked just what is it that they have got to hide. Keep on writing, Mr Booker.


I used to respect your views but since your highly questionable doubts regarding Darwin and evolution were publicised, I suspect that you are a wishful thinker rather than using verifiable facts based on strong evidence to support your case. You scoff, but remember the Millennium Bug! Planetary catastrophe was narrowly averted only by the co-ordinated efforts of thousands of IT experts, painstakingly and meticulously lining their pockets at taxpayers’ expense. The biggest problem the world faces today is over-population – that creates all the other problems of dwindling resources, etc.

I note that the Prince of Wales has again added to the scaremongering, this time giving us a time-frame of fewer than 100 months. Has anyone noticed that the Earth is actually cooling and has been doing so for the last 11 years or more? The models and calculations have repeatedly been proved to be incorrect and those that are on the GW bandwagon spout their nonsense littered with “could”, “might”, “estimated” with nothing remotely accurate. It’s time these people took real jobs and left science fiction to those who entertain by doing so.

Thank you so much for publishing this article. Man-made CO2 as an engine for global warming is a great steaming pile of buffalo droppings, a hoax, bad science, Flat-Earth nonsense. I contributed to a thread on the Guardian website about global warming and was the object of furious invective from an outraged “global warmer”. I had suggested that the engine for warming and cooling of the planet was the state of activity of the sun. I further pointed out that the Sun is now in a quiescent phase, and the process of global cooling had now begun (the last winter was the coolest in a decade). I predicted that next winter would be even colder, and the winter beyond, colder yet. I also mentioned the interesting detail that the polar ice-caps on our sister planet, Mars, had been shrinking, along with those on earth. (This had been noted by an orbiting satellite and reported in the magazine “Nature”). All of this infuriated the “global warmer”, and our exchange ended when he uttered the classic big whopper of the CO2 brigade, that what I was trying to suggest ran against the collected wisdom of the “entire scientific community”.

The world of “science” has brought us many myths: “bacteria cause disease, “smoking is harmful to your health, “natural selection shaped the species of the earth, “the earth is round,” and so forth. And now science offers the myth of climate change. What rubbish! Bless Christopher Booker for exposing modern science for what it is: a wicked and evil obstacle to mindless superstition.


Yes, the climate change extremists can shut up. Global warming is a lie, and climate change is a big joke.

How is it that the Telegraph can print and deliver millions of printed papers to all corners of the country in less time than it takes them to post comments on blogs?

Did you notice the ice on Kilimanjaro in the comic relief film of the celebrity climb? Wonder if Gore did?

I feel so saddened to have read this article. I hope that he is right and that nobody does listen to the so-called ‘real’ climate change experts. I also hope that Christopher Booker will look back in shame and take responsibility for his damaging comments.


James Lovelock has said recently in Vanishing Face of Gaia that that the range of evidence from IPCC climate models is so wide and varied as to be not useful for politicos to base their policies on reliably, so it seems that Mr Booker isn’t so far wide of the mark. Me? I’m gonna buy me some shares in Vestas Wind Systems or Clipper Windpower or Suzlon Energy and ride the bubble and get a free holiday out of feeling pious. But, seriously folks, this recording of all your trips and holidays and journeys out of the UK that is being billed as a security measure will doubtless lead to more sanctimony and moralising about carbon footprints and subsequent taxation on your income/capital/ bin contents/ lifestyle/ etc., for the good of all… of course… Escape whilst you can ?


So Nick Griffin supports your arguments Mr Booker. Says it all. I only visited this website to see what the other side is up to, and my god it’s frightening.

Once again, Christopher Booker sheds light on the inside of this internationally-organised corrupt can of worms. Just like the ‘Natural England’ organisation – there is nothing natural or even honest in the ‘climate change’ itinerary. The whole concept is to control and to tax whilst simultaneously ensuring open debate or dissent is rigorously denied any opening. It must be fought – quite simple really – even in the face of the Grauniads who would make climate-change denial a similar crime to holocaust-denial (and even I grant that one of them did indeed occur – and it wasn’t the one warming the Earth!) We desperately need more honest journalists (and a few honest Editors) to publish the real “FACTS” behind the climate SCAM – before the world’s governments give all our money away to corrupt bankers who are providing the present wonderfully convenient smoke-screen for them.

Even if your complacency regarding the greenhouse gases and climate, was justified, which I don’t believe it is, we would still have to adopt identical policies to prevent ocean acidification. No doubt you believe this is all alarmist nonsense as well.

I am so glad that finally there are scientists out there who are finding the courage to question this so-called climate change. Al Gore has been making a very tidy packet from all this. Creating fear in young people is criminal, and he should be sued by parents everywhere.

I was delighted to run across this article and the accompanying comments. Americans are clearly no longer the worst-educated Westerners. A challenge for you who deny the reality of anthropogenic climate change. Produce one recent college textbook that supports your position.


Discovery channel had a good idea recently, in order to reforest areas you parachute in saplings. To perform the experiment they used 8 helicopters and 2 medium-sized planes. The result, I have no idea… they never said what happened with the saplings. I suspect that the whole experiment cost half a million with a 20% success rate. Their other experiment wasn’t much better and used even more fuel than the choppers. A man with a horse and cart would have achieved a much better success rate (+90%) at a lot less cost, a lot less cost! But that doesn’t fit with the Enviro-Nazis’ or the bleeding-heart liberals’ agenda.

You’re seriously going to accept the findings of the Heartland Institute? Its really great to see tobacco and oil lobbiests calling themselves a scientific think tank. I seriously find it hard to take an organisation that defends the taxes charged on smokers seriously. Meanwhile 1 year of global cooling vs the more than 50 year upward trend that we are seeing doesn’t really match up, does it? But thats ok, your science teaches you that the Earth is flat and God will make everything OK as long as we kill terrorists and go to church on Sundays…

Follow the money – whose opinions are bought and paid for by the fossil fuel and other extractive industries? I look at pedigree: the pedigrees of those arguing calmly with science on their side, and those arguing ferociously from a political position that everything is hunky-dory and we have no need to worry about global climate change. I know which lot I would rather trust with my life and possessions.

Ricky. Some of the people posting here are paid by the oil companies. And others by the Sierra Club, Theresa Kerry and George Soros.


The global warming fraud is a deliberate ploy to wind back civilisation. It’s Nazism all over again – mass death. If you wipe out industrial civilisation, you wipe at least 5 billion people from the planet. We need more technology not less. Nuclear is clean, safe and necessary on a large scale – around 6000 power stations are needed worldwide to bring the world up to a decent standard of living, and to arrest the ongoing decline in living standards.

The modern environmental movement arose out of the wreckage of the New Left. They call themselves Green because they’re too yellow to admit they’re really Reds. Why do you think Lenin’s birthday was chosen to be the date of Earth Day? The only underlying theme that makes sense of all Greenie policies is hatred of people. Hatred of other people has been a Greenie theme from way back. In a report titled “The First Global Revolution” (1991, p. 104) published by the “Club of Rome”, a Greenie panic outfit, we find the following statement: “In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill…. All these dangers are caused by human intervention… The real enemy, then, is humanity itself.”


Professor Lindzen is reported in www.logicalscience.com to have claimed that no one seems to be able to explain the growing Greenland ice sheet. Anyone living in northern climes – even Forrest Gump-like non-scientists – can tell you the heaviest snows take place in the ten degrees centigrade just below freezing. The colder it gets after that, the less snow falls because of the inability of very cold air to hold moisture. Living as I do in Anchorage, Alaska, I know that a clear sunny winter day usually means biting cold temperatures. It is warmer temperatures that explain the heavier snowfall in Greenland, leading to a buildup of the ice sheets. With even warmer temperatures those heavier snowfalls will be offset by melting in areas above freezing. This is just one example pointing out Lindzen’s cluelessness. Please check out the logicalscience website for more of the same.

The US, UK, and Israeli militaries needlessly produce huge amounts of CO2 and they are the greatest threat to human and planetary survival — a greater threat than Al Qaeda, Iran, China, and Russia combined. We must stop the Iraq and Afghanistan wars immediately if we want to save the planet. Why are we producing huge amounts of CO2 to get control of the Middle East oil when we shouldn’t even be using oil anyway?

Do politicians take any notice of these expressions of public opinion? How long do we wait for D. Cameron to make apologies about Tory climate fatuities? Or do we have to find other parties to vote for?

I thought that the earth was still coming out of the last ice age – how are we going to stop this happening.


I agree with you 100%, Mark Denny. Liberals want to scare, intimidate, and/or imprison anyone who doesn’t agree with their agenda. They are nothing more than modern-day Nazis.

This is nothing more than vile propaganda. I really believe climate change denial should be an imprisonable offense. Hundreds of millions of people will die if something isn’t done… I know this because my children are brainwashed/taught these very things in school. If they argue against the ‘facts’, they’ll come home with low grades. And schools (and indeed universities) are hardly the places to make political points now, are they?

Rush was right! I remember when radio-talk-conservative ripped Gore years ago. He said that the left would create a crisis and offer solutions to save us through government-controlled bureaucracy and (but of course) new taxes. In America Obama has already penciled in 700+ BILLION carbon taxes in the coming years. This has become a sad money game with insiders controlling the message and developing the self-benefitting solutions.


If you keep catching the prophets in lies, on facts which are easily verifiable, it becomes foolish to believe the unverifiable, like whether a computer model was programmed correctly. Al Gore lied or obfuscated repeatedly in his movie. He implied global warming caused the Aral Sea to dry up, when in fact the major sources of water, the Syr Darya and Amu Darya were dammed and diverted by the Soviets for irrigation. The Soviets dug a 1375 km canal diverting the water of the Amu Darya all the way across the Kara Kum desert to Ashgabat! The dam on the Syr Darya at Kairakkum holds back a freshwater reservoir the Tajiks tongue-in-cheek call the “Tajik Sea”. Al Gore showed pictures of glaciers melting since the 1940’s.

Well, I live near Chicago, and where I live used to be under a glacier a mile thick; glaciers have been melting continuously since the end of the last ice age 10,000 years ago! Al Gore showed us the Vostok ice core graphs. What he didn’t bother to mention is that if you download the data and study it closely, you see that temperature LEADS CO2 by 400 years on average. Governments have responded to this revelation. Two years ago it was easy to find this data and examine it closely.

Now you go to government web sites and they have scrunched up time scales and plotted with wider pen widths so that the pen width is wider than the 400 year antithesis. I saw one dot UK website that even had the chutzpah to compress the CO2 scale with respect to the temperature scale, shift the CO2 plot up, and then proclaim that yes, CO2 is almost always behind temperature, but look at the bottom of the chart, it is in front (it is actually above) temperature, so CO2 must start the heating! If countries are going to brazenly manipulate data to promote a fraud, they need to get their act together!

You must also keep in mind these are the same people who have made and continue to make perfectly safe and energy-efficient refrigerants illegal to manufacture, because of an ozone hole which mysteriously stays in one spot exactly coinciding with the flow of charged particles from the auroras. If refrigerant were causing ozone depletion, how would the refrigerant know what exact spot on earth to be over to cause a chemical reaction in cold thin freezing air moving hundreds of miles an hour, especially over a darkened pole, when sunlight is supposed to trigger the reaction? Compare in your mind how much energy is in an aurora, whose energy comes from solar flares and once caused so much DC charge to flow it caused a major blackout in Canada, versus a minuscule trace of completely inert molecules with fluorine-carbon-chlorine bonds. We have gone back to the unenlightened ages when religions dictated science.

Note: the “inert molecules” are actually CATALYTIC in function, and thus immediately “crack” another ozone molecule, and so on, until they are finally “cracked” themselves by high-energy atmospheric photons. It is the rate of fluorocarbon catalysis versus the rate of fluorocarbon breakdown which is the issue here. There are other issues with anthropogenic oxides of nitrogen and sulfur. AND there are 10,000 ACTIVE VOLCANOES.

What makes Professor Lindzen the most distinguished climatologist in the world? I do not see any reason other than the fact the he agrees with the author’s viewpoint. I hear that this Professor also believes that the relationship between smoking and lung cancer is highly exaggerated. Is he the most distinguished medical expert as well? The point is that Professor Lindzen discredits himself by commenting on areas where he does not have any expertise, thereby coming across as a naysayer, a contrarian. And by the way, he is also associated with organizations receiving money from ExxonMobil and the likes. That can amount to a conflict of interest too.

Perhaps this issue would be taken more seriously if less airtime was given to clowns like Prince Charles and more to real experts on the subject.

Well said once again CB. Why is no one willing to listen? Has anyone in Government the guts to open their ears & minds & query the copious self-serving drivel served up by Mr Gore etc.. ?


To Ricky and all the others who believe in man-made global warming known as AGW, I’m going to make this simple so even your group can understand it. Al Gore said the Earth was having a fever. To this I ask one simple question.
Can anyone, scientist or not, tell me what temperature the Earth SHOULD be? The answer is NO. Before you believe in this junk have someone answer this question. Because without knowing this answer you don’t know if the so called warming (man-made or not) is warming us to where we should be. After this it does get a little harder to follow so the greenies that just drink kool-aid might not be able to follow. Remember the ultimate assertion is AGW. If there is global warming, or as they now like to call it climate change, then it depends on if it is natural or caused by man. If it is natural then your own arguments say we need to do NOTHING as this interferes with the natural cycles.
The first problem is to determine if we are warming or cooling. This all depends on your time reference. For example, is the stock market going up or down? For a year and a half the answer is down. If we pick 1990 as a starting point then up. The reason most chicken littles pick 1850 is because that was a very cool point in history. If we pick 1998 or the 1930’s we have had cooling. What all this means is that we really aren’t warming or cooling, but the climate does change over time.
So the real bottom line question is: “Is this change is caused by man?” This is the AGW hypothesis. I’m going to use two words that many greenies will have trouble understanding. Correlation and causation.

Correlation is where observations show that one event is linked to another observation. For example there is a correlation on who wins the Super Bowl and how the stock market does for the rest of the year. But no one except a fool would think that the winner of the Super Bowl CAUSES the stock market to go up or down. Now all the so called AGW scientists claim that CO2 causes climate change.
First, let’s see if there is a correlation. In looking at the data and ice cores there is a correlation. The only problem is that CO2 trails (meaning “is after”) temperature increases by 800 years. Oops! Since they can’t show a leading correlation scientifically, they can’t show causation.
But let’s go one step further and claim that CO2 does impact climate change. How much of this is man made? We need to know how big CO2 is in relation to all greenhouse gases, what percentage of all CO2 is man-made and finally the proposed reductions. CO2 is less than 5% of all greenhouse gases and man contributes less than 20% of that. Finally they want to reduce (not eliminate) this amount by 20% at the most. Many are just reducing 5% or less. So 20% of 20% of 5% results in a total reduction of .2%. If the expected temperature increase is 3 degrees then we can expect all the money spent on CO2 reductions to result in .006 degrees of temperature reduction. WOW!
So now that I have explained all this for the greenies I don’t want to hear from them unless they answer these points. And stay off the 9 billion people thing. Unless you want to commit mass murder it has zero bearing on the AGW argument.


Global Warming Room 102

This I discovered at WIRED:


I frequently find the comments to be FAR more interesting than the articles!  🙂


2briang 04/30/09
@Synesius : “CO2 abundance was twice the current value during the Miocene epoch (7-23 million years ago) and the climate was temperate but cooling. It was ten times the current value at the beginning of the Eocene (56-37 million years ago)and the climate was tropical and cooling. Facts are stubborn things. The “Warmies” count on people not knowing any.”
Gee….how do you think the quality of life was for reality-based, fact-driven people such as yourself during those epochs ? I wonder if you think that it is a fact that humans and dinosaurs co-existed on earth ?
The “fact” is that the Earth will survive us all, and will prevail through all kinds of climatological events. The issue is, my children and grandchildren (and yours) will not.

SteveNordquist 04/30/09
2briang that’s awesome, just as long as we mate with actual well-adapted to 23m year old conditions dinosaurs the kids will be all right.
I’m gonna need some new parenting…theme park equipment.

RichardHead | 04/30/09
Lots of sharp people here. FYI Al Gore is subsidized by Exxon Mobil. When the CO2 is captured under his plan, Exxon Mobil will be the benefactor in 2 ways. They will be paid to dispose of the CO2, by injecting it into unused oil wells. When the CO2 enters the oil field, it will allow capture of oil by forcing it to flow to low production wells, increasing the ability to pump it to the surface, so more oil is available to burn.
Follow the money. Global warming is great for oil. Do you really believe Exxon Mobil is a stupid company?

Curly | 04/30/09
Why are we not told of the concentration of CO2 in the air now versus what it was each decade from 1970 to present? If the concentration is not increasing then CO2 is not the problem.
There is another problem. Many or even most in the environmental movement have brought lawsuits to prevent the building of nuclear power plants. How many thousands of tons of CO2 could have been prevented from being released into the atmosphere if the nuclear power plants had been built? It is very disingenuous of the ‘environmentalist’ today to now say we have to reduce the CO2 emissions.
If I remember global history correctly the northern hemisphere (at least) had large ice flows down to somewhere around Arizona area. My question is where are the ice flows now? They existed long before humanity had made an impact on the earth. Was there global warming before man? HUM, Maybe man is not making the impact that he is being accused of.

thisthinghere | 04/30/09
science ignorance – 1: the state of lacking knowledge or comprehension of what science is, how science is undertaken using the scientific method, and the actions and responsibilities of scientists 2: a state characterized by the mistaken belief that the scientific method is a “thing”, a device, an object or a law that only one side in a scientific debate is allowed to use, while the other side in that debate can only whine.
clinical examples of condition:
1: “when people disagree with something that science has said is proven, all they have to do is whine a lot. there’s no reason for them to do their homework, to use the scientific method to come up with a BETTER theory. No, they can just whine, and that will magically disprove decades of work by thousands of scientists”
2: Galileo, Copernicus, all those guys did was whine. They didn’t use science to show the church’s theories about the motion of the heavens and the Earth’s place in the solar system were ignorant and wrong. all they did was whine, and somehow people just felt like believing them.”
3: “All scientists do all day is sit around and come up with things they want to believe in. and then they force everyone to believe in it too. science is just about belief”
4: “A scientific law in science is a law because that’s just what a majority of people want to think. there’s no experimental basis or calculations to back it up”
5: “What’s so unfair about science is that once a scientist has proven a hypothesis, no one else can use the scientific method to come up with a better experiment to prove a better hypothesis. this is the tyranny of science. that the scientific method can only be used by special people, and is not a gift for all of humanity that anyone can use.”
6: “The reason why there are so many hypotheses and theories about dark matter, and strings, and god particles, etc., is just because all those scientists haven’t come up with something they all believe in, not because the experiments so far are coming up with different, contradictory results. it’s about all the scientists coming up with something to believe in, not about coming up with such a smart hypothesis and smart experiment that no matter how scientists test it, they always end up with the same result”
7: “When 90% of scientists agree on something, it’s not because they’ve reviewed the experiments and calculations and that 9 out 10 of them have independently arrived at the same conclusion, it’s because they’re all drinking and golfing buddies”
8: And the 10% of scientists who have reviewed the experiments and calculations and independently arrived at a different conclusion don’t have to use the scientific method to come up with a better experiment to prove a better hypothesis. all they have to do is whine and that makes all the experiments and calculations of the 90% automatically wrong”
9: “The burden is on scientists to prove other scientists wrong, to prove a negative. it is NOT to prove a BETTER, more accurate, or more elegant hypothesis, theory or law.”

samagon | 04/30/09
Sorry everyone, I’ve been really gassy lately, which is causing more global warming, and localized seat warming. I would also like to add that this man-bear-pig-flu thing that is going around may be a blessing, if it ever gets to india and china, assuming it kills off half of their populations. that would cut down on the CO2 production from that part of the world by a large margin.

joenz | 04/30/09
Astro posted: “None of you are likely scientists, so just shut the hell up. Most of you people are just some average schmoe who have no clue about anything.” Follow the money idiot. I am an electrical engineer and I currently have a job designing solar panels. I am employed partly because of global warming theories. Other “scientists” are getting paid to do global warming research. The people paying them EXPECT them to find results supporting global warming theories! Climatologists that publicly report data that does not agree with mainstream global warming theories are swiftly fired and called nutcases. Most people around the world that speak against global warming claims are not nut cases, but instead they are not comfortable being HEAVILY TAXED because the government says “Don’t worry, we have scientists saying we need your money.”

papajon0s1 | 04/30/09
No, I don’t buy this for one second. And no, I don’t have the time, talent, or treasure to do my own extensive Global Warming research. I don’t have time to go get my own ice core samples or determine levels of sea ice or measure how much CO2 is whereever. I also don’t buy into any computer modeling because computer models many times can’t predict the next days weather let alone conditions years ago or years into the future.
All I know is what I read and clearly there is plenty of “disputable evidence” because there are plenty of arguments on both sides. What angers me is being forced into environmental policy based on what may or may not be true. Once you start claiming that the data is not arguable I know it’s crap and in no way should you make policy based on that.
Don’t you ‘green’ folk realize when you get into your “we ALL have to do x or y or x” or “We all should get behind green technology this or greeen technology that” that you instantly turn off a huge portion of your audience? Once you sound like an elitist lefty uber-enviro-nazi you might as well be talking to a brick wall.
You need a new way of presenting your data without all the pretentious alarmist crap. That said, I’m all for things like alt-fuel vehicles where I can pay pennies per mile over dollars. I’m happy when there isn’t crap and litter all over the streets. No one likes a smog-filled city or a lake so polluted even the rats won’t go there. But seriously, there seems to be a reasonable environmentalism that is no longer here and it has been replaced with complete idiotic bunk.

phira360 | 04/30/09
If we are going to try to help climate change, then why are you spending so much time on the computer reading and typing this? This is a bit ironic.

zerocontrol | 04/30/09
If you have 9 minutes of your life to watch a video THIS IS ONE TO WATCH. No it’s not one of those annoying, stupid videos. It’s very down to earth straight forward and most important real.

BrianScience | 04/30/09
32,000 scientists, including 72 Nobel Prize winners, say that Global Warming/Climate Change is NOT caused by humans. See: http://bit.ly/qOmhr
Where is the science to prove humans are the cause of GW/CG?? Fact: CO2 levels rose AFTER Global Warming started, NOT before. FACT: The most prevalent “greenhouse gas” is WATER VAPOR, not CO2! This article did nothing to refute these facts.

AJ | 04/29/09
Oh noes! 1!! 11!! With all those tons of CO2 up in the air, it’s only a matter of time before great big chunks of the sky start falling on us! Good thing we have those stones in Georgia to tell us all what to do after the Ecopocalypse.
Do these climate change models also take into account the global disruptions that will be caused by the massive solar flares that previous modeling experts (i.e. Mayans) have predicted occurring in December, 2012?
I hate to quote Sarah Connor, but it is important to remember that future has not been written. While information like this is good to be aware of, its veracity can only be proven over time. It is important to note that these models are only theories (as in string theory where there’s a lot of doubt, as opposed to the theory of evolution where there is none [at least among intelligent & rational persons]).
Basing global economic policies on sketchy science that relies far too much on single variable, hockey stick-type graphs is not a good long term plan. What happens when the next crisis du jour crops up and all our efforts to reduce CO2 have created some other ecological nightmare? The only thing that can truly be relied upon is the Law of Unintended Consequences. No matter what we do to fix our present circumstances, it will have negative ramifications that will need to be dealt with in the future.
My recommendation is to plan and prepare for the worst, but avoid disrupting the entire world economy in attempt to fix something that isn’t necessarily broken.


mhungry | 04/29/09
There’s a real problem with these numbers and the concern over CO2. We seem to forget that some things on this planet breathe CO2. What about the CO2 removed from the atmosphere by these plants? I haven’t seen that taken into account very often in these studies.
This leads to my “best way to be green” tip: Plant more plants and cut down less trees. There you go. Simple and effective.

photoprinter | 04/29/09
I have never seen an article about CO2 that EVER mentions the atmospheres self-cleaning function. It’s called RAIN. And @mhungry, don’t worry about the cutting of trees. At least in this country, logging companies plant more trees than they cut down. If they did not, soon they would not have any product to sell.

Crashz | 04/29/09
ok so… AJ, let me ask you this, if you saw cracks slowly forming in a fish tank, would you fix it before or after the tank breaks and spill all of the fish on the floor, if we don’t start slowly fixing it now, later on it will probably be worse for us if we try a radical change (another analogy comes to mind of jumping into freezing water, but one analogy is my limit per rant)
mhungry, the plants you speak of cannot keep up with what we are putting out, in fact, we are eliminating the very plants that you speak of in our rain forests which produce most of our breathable air. So therefore the values that are removed by the plants are probably in there, it just doesn’t contribute to the reduction of the CO2 fast enough.
I’m not some green freak, I’m just a critical thinker.

lukelea | 04/29/09
I’m with Freeman Dyson on this one. Global warming, on balance, may be good for the human race and there is not much we can do about it anyway.

Angema | 04/29/09
“Don’t worry about cutting down trees.” Thats the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. “At least in this country . . .” Yeah. Its too bad this country doesn’t span the globe. “. . . logging companies plant more trees than they cut down.” Yeah. Its too bad all forested land isn’t owned by logging companies. Forested land even in the U.S. is decreasing. Most of this isn’t due to logging companies, true. Its due in large part to land fragmentation and conversion to feed our suburban lifestyle. That does not mean it isn’t a problem.

LandShark | 04/29/09
Huh… just halfway?

cspearow | 04/29/09
Climate change happens. We are going to deal with it, not prevent it.
Climate change is kind of like starving African children or the killing of baby Harp seals: nobody likes it, but just try to get anybody to spend their own money to stop it.

MentorMatt | 04/29/09
MHUNGRY, you are absolutely right, as is Freeman Dyson. The plants absorb humongous amounts of CO2.
Problem is, mhungry, you only wrote a small comment, while the article that cites bogus computer simulations actually has a big blue planet picture all over it…
Expose climate fearmongers for what they are… and they include Wired.

cirby | 04/29/09
That’s odd… Up until recently, five (or six, or seven) degrees Centigrade by 2100 was the “point of no return” for Global Warming. That was the amount we were going to see by the end of this century, according to Al Gore and the IPCC. Even now, the Weather Channel is pushing the “Six Degrees” meme.
All of a sudden, it’s TWO degrees by 2060 or so (well below the previous predicted curve – this would make 2100 about four degrees hotter than the 1980s, when Global Warming was first predicted).
Sounds like someone noticed that we’re not going to make the six (or five, or whatever the current worst-case scenario is) degrees, so they have to revamp their predictions. Again. So, instead of “parts per million” (which has been the measuring standard for the whole extent of the debate), they decided to move the goalposts to “total tons of carbon dioxide”.
Beware the “round number prediction.” When you see a scientific prediction that uses something like “one trillion tons,” it almost always means someone chose that amazing number for political reasons, not from any scientific one. It sounds scary, so they use it, and make the equations fit. They pick dates 10 or 20 or 50 or 100 years down the road, not because science actually predicts anything, but because people automatically accept long-term predictions divisible by ten.
If this were real science, it would be something like “in about 63 years, plus or minus five, the temperature will be X degrees, plus or minus Y.”
Remember the “several meters of sea level rise by 2100?” Which became, after some actual math, less than half a meter (or, possibly, a couple of inches)? Or the melting of all of the ice in 10 (or 100, or whatever) years? Which, as it turns out, is either not really happening (Greenland), is cyclical and reversing (the North Pole), or trending in the opposite direction (Antarctica).
Why is it that every time the GW catastrophists have to make revisions to their work, it’s always in the downward direction?

steelerfanhw | 04/29/09
I think that global warming was created in one of Al Gore’s bad dreams. Look throughout history and you will find that there have been significant climate changes that have shaped the earth we call home. Like the stock market, I say that we should let the climate run its course and not try to manually change it.

VinsonDaly | 04/29/09
Well then after the pandemic we should expect some improvement.

steelerfanhw | 04/29/09
How is that?

derekris | 04/29/09
Whatever — the swine flu will kill all of us and then it won’t matter. The irony of scientific sensationalism is that no one will be around to celebrate when it finally predicts something with perfect accuracy.


damasterwc | 04/29/09
The ‘evidence’ is computer models. Very inaccurate computer models that scale 1 pixel to 200 square miles or so. WTF!@!!! they said financial derivatives would never blow out cuz their computer models told them so. take a lesson from the blood-sucking speculators: computer models are fine for modeling conditions within a computer, they do not, however, model reality.
fyi: world ocean temperatures have decreased in the last 5 years, and Antarctic ice cover is at the largest it’s been in 20 years. Why do you think there is the sudden push to pass these draconian bills? They know the warming of the 20th century is over and they’re trying to get their shit passed before enough of us realize it’s bullshit. wake the f*&# up!

Scriptable | 04/29/09
I’m with the vast majority of scientists and the evidence on this one — rapid and irreversable global climate change is caused by human activity. Pray to Jesus as much as you like, it aint gonna change the facts.

steelerfanhw | 04/29/09
The climate is volatile, and I believe that if we try and help, it will only make problems worse. It will cause problems that actually are irreversible.

johnsbrn | 04/29/09
mhungry: Do you really think climatologists are not aware of the existence of plants? Their effects are well known and have been studied extensively. The fact is, plants aren’t a carbon sink, they are just a temporary store. Throughout the year plants take in and release carbon dioxide. Most of the carbon is also released when they die or are burned.
photoprinter: exactly what is the mechanism by which rain scrubs CO2 from the atmosphere? Rain will mix with some carbon in the atmosphere (very minimal), which is they released back when the water evaporates.
Global warming is real, there is indisputable data to back that up, the only thing in question is how much of it (if any) is caused by us. At the end of the day, no one wants to suck on a cars tailpipe or live next to a coal power plant, so whether you think we are the cause or not let’s focus on cleaning up the air to improve our quality of life and create sustainable energy sources. If a by-product of that happens to be less global warming, then that’s great too.

tonygotskilz | 04/29/09
@ Crash – “ok so……. in fact, we are eliminating the very plants that you speak of in our rain forests which produce most of our breathable air. ….
You may be a critical thinker but not a critical reader obviously. The majority of our breathable air does not come from tree, or rainforests. It comes from algae.
And thats the problem with people who comment on the environment. They hear something thats in vogue, it sounds good so they repeat it, then the next idiot believes it cause he read it on the interwebs…
I challenge anyone who believes in global warming being affected by man to do some research into climate change written pre-1990’s. We have not been recording statistics on temperature and C02 emissions for long enough to have any clue what we are dealing and therefore I personally believe we should not go making changes to anything until we have at least enough facts to make an informed decision instead of just snap judgements… But I’ve beaten this horse many times and although it looks dead it’s still walking around.


nickbrooks | 04/29/09
I’m going to cancel my subscription to Nature (where this research is published). Why bother to read the science first hand in one of the world’s most respected peer-reviewed scientific journals when I can read such intelligent analysis by non-specialists who know better than the scientists on the comments pages of Wired? What was I thinking?

kflanagan | 04/29/09
What about sunspots and the extended solar minimum we are now in? 2008 and 2009 have proven to be the lowest sunspot activity in 100 years and the earth has been cooling since the last solar max in 2000.
To quote Harvard astrophysicist Dr Soon: “If this deep solar minimum continues and our planet cools while CO2 levels continue to rise, thinking needs to change. This will be a very telling time and it’s very, very useful in terms of science and society in my opinion.”

designguybrown | 04/29/09
An interesting phrase that underlines the whole article: “… Reducing emissions steadily over 50 years is much cheaper and easier and less traumatic than allowing them to rise for 15 years and then reducing them violently for 35 years….” This may not necessarily be true with future full implementation of dramatic technological innovations, comprehensive change-over of energy sources, and firmly accepted take-hold of policy initiatives.
Which further brings up the idea of conservation -vs- technology when it comes to guiding consumers and companies with policy – it may not be possible to fully focus on both. It may be more successful to wait for technologies, thus staying wealthy in the meantime, (with easy adaptation and minimal sacrifice) that will allow a continual increase in living-standard so that we can afford consumables in the future that hide all the emission-increase and energy-usage in a great technology. Think of how far developed and widespread renewable energy sources will be by then. The costs of sacrificing now may not allow us to afford more potent technologies later on (i.e. 15 years from now). Just a thought.

steelerfanhw | 04/29/09
Well it doesn’t help that alternative energies are not very cost effective. Taking oil away from Americans is like taking away McDonald’s from an obese person.

rimshot515 | 04/29/09
Sure, global warming is occurring. Sure, the temperature of the planet may rise two degrees. Sure, carbon dioxide levels are rising.
But where is the research depicting specific, measurable, catastrophic events resulting from this? And don’t you dare say hurricanes, or I will have the British government slap you in the face with their bill to include the evidence that it is not the result of global warming.
Side point: CO2 levels follow temperature rises, not the other way around. Looking back at the Medieval periods, when there was a sh!tload of coal powered plants, global warming occurred, and CO2 subsequently rose. It’s a cycle.
Additionally, plants function best at higher concentrations of CO2. In fact, farmers use this technique to produce higher yields of crops. That, along with the opening of new shipping lanes in the North and revealing of mineral deposits and mammoth fossils, depict global warming as a good thing, not bad.
Finally, there have been several periods where global warming has stopped and even decreased, while we kept truckin’ along in our SUV’s. For example, global temperature has not risen for the past decade. Between 1940-1970, temperature actually decreased as we spat tons of CO2 into the air with the massive production of military equipment and inefficient cars.
So no cause for alarm. Enjoy the weather!

LouSkannen | 04/29/09
How can computer “projections,” basically hypotheses expressed in computer code, be taken as credible evidence of that which they posit? Only observed evidence, measurement, can scientifically support hypotheses. And the evidence supporting climate models so far is at best mixed, at worst, non-supportive in the short term and who knows for the long term. They predict the past well (often); the future…?
I’ve been reading on this issue for years and have yet to find credible evidence that recent climate change of whatever metric is significantly different globally because of our presence than is natural.
How utterly predictable that the UN body charged with determining how significantly man is changing climate has found that man IS changing climate – and the situation demands immediate government, nay, international, action! Duh…
At least the Nature article simplified things, kinda like a notorious algorithm recently described on this site simplified determining investment risk. That certainly turned out well.

plaasjaapie | 04/29/09
Repeat after me “Trofim Lysenko”.

Synesius | 04/29/09
“Climate Science” is to the Left what “Creation Science” is to the right: nonsense used to promote an agenda.
CO2 abundance was twice the current value during the Miocene epoch (7-23 million years ago) and the climate was temperate but cooling. It was ten times the current value at the beginning of the Eocene (56-37 million years ago)and the climate was tropical and cooling.
Facts are stubborn things. The “Warmies” count on people not knowing any.

mikesd | 04/29/09
Wow. I thought Wired was a magazine for smart people. Where did all the jr. scientist commenters come from. Planetary science has known CO2, methane, etc. are the gases that hold an atmosphere to a planet (and trap the sun’s energy) for over a hundred years.
Now, suddenly, all the Fox News viewers are pretending they can rewrite basic third grade science to suit their selfish brand of politics. Good luck.

nerevolution5 | 04/29/09
Like one of the brightest scientists on the planet, Michio Kaku said (on the topic of Global Climate Change) it seems it will take a catastrophe before humans react.
It’s natural for any species to change their habits only when something isn’t working *currently*. The economy broke again, everybody tries fix it. Swine flu suddenly starts killing people, so airports around the world cancel flights to/from Mexico. So far, climate change has had no immediate impact on human life. As I expected, the majority of the people commenting on this article don’t care about it.
Until coastal cities become flooded by melting polar caps, and farms can’t grow the crops they used to because of a lack of rain, or too much rain, chances are nothing will change.
It’s rather interesting that people say “why modify our climate, let it run its course!” when we’re *already* modifying it.
I think the important thing that humans will need to come to is that they need to learn how to prevent catastrophes before they happen. It seems a lot of people think everything will just work out on its own. The ones who say climate change isn’t “going to happen” probably also don’t believe the Earth will one day be sucked into a black hole. Just because we don’t see it happening doesn’t mean it won’t ever happen.
It’s unfortunate, but like I said, people will continue to deny Climate Change or shrug it off until something apocalyptic happens. Just like the sudden tight security at all airports since 9/11. Just like the sudden attention to bridges when the Minnesota bridge collapsed.
Humans will only reach a new level of intelligence when we take action *before* these things happen.

Scriptable | 04/29/09
The arguments presented here against climate change are reminiscent of the banna proof that God created use 6000 years ago, or the peanut butter jar proof against evolution. Simplistic and wrong, but appealing to those of below-average intellect.

Crystal_girl | 04/30/09
Excuse me Al Gore, I have a question. What about all of the CO2 emitted by the rapidly expanding number of mobile sources called human beings? Even if we discontinued use of all fossil fuels, our expanding human population is emitting ever increasing amounts of CO2. Not to mention all other forms of animal life. So should we have a cap and trade system for babies too?? Why don’t we just start planting a lot more trees?
I for one am not ready to give up my car or my electricity, and it is the height of arrogance for us in the West to tell China and India that they may not industrialize in order to raise the standard of living of their peoples.

Synesius | 04/30/09
FYI Crystal_Girl, of the 30 billion tons of CO2 produced annually by humans, about 2 billion come from exhaling, as you rightly point out. You are also correct in assuming that the Warmies WILL use this issue to control who can have babies. Scratch a Leftist and you will almost always find a totalitarian.
BTW, termites produce around 55 billion tons of CO2, almost twice our output. People who advocate planting trees should think twice; trees are termite food. Do we really want to encourage those little CO2 emitters to multiply?


martinp | 04/30/09
@Crystal_girl – first of all, I don’t see any mention of Al Gore in the article, so why do you bring him up? Somehow I don’t think you actually even bothered reading the article before posting.
And to address your argument, humans breathing out CO2 do not contribute to climate change since that CO2 came from plants that absorbed it from the atmosphere a few months or years earlier. CO2 stays in the atmosphere for decades, so this kind of emission makes no net contribution. The problem is CO2 that has been locked away for a long time, ie fossil fuels.
Honestly the strongest argument in favor of AGW is the weakness of the alternative explanations. This comments thread is a perfect example.

dobermanmacleod | 04/30/09
I would like to correct the author of this article-one trillion tons (a teraton) is an overestimation: we now have evidence from the Earth’s history that a similar event happened fifty-five million years ago when a geological accident released into the air more than a teraton of gaseous carbon compounds.
As a consequence the temperature in the Arctic and temperate regions rose eight degree Celsius and in tropical regions about five degrees, and it took over one hundred thousand years before normality was restored.
We have already put more than half this quantity of carbon gas into the air and now the Earth is weakened by the loss of land we took to feed and house ourselves. In addition, the sun is now warmer, and as a consequence the Earth is now returning to the hot state it was in before, millions of years ago, and as it warms, most living things will die.” (The Revenge of Gaia.)
By the way, here is what Climate Code Red says:
–Human emissions have so far produced a global average temperature increase of 0.8 degree C.
–There is another 0.6 degree C. to come due to “thermal inertia”, or lags in the system, taking the total long-term global warming induced by human emissions so far to 1.4 degree C.
–If human total emissions continue as they are to 2030 (and don’t increase 60% as projected) this would likely add more than 0.4 degrees C. to the system in the next two decades, taking the long-term effect by 2030 to at least 1.7 degrees C. (A 0.3 degree C. increase is predicted for the period 2004-2014 alone by Smith, Cusack et al, 2007).
–Then add the 0.3 degree C. albedo flip effect from the now imminent loss of the Arctic sea ice, and the rise in the system by 2030 is at least 2 degree. C, assum ing very optimistically that emissions don’t increase at all above their present annual rate! When we consider the potential permafrost releases and the effect of carbon sinks losing capacity, we are on the road to a hellish future, not for what we will do, but WHAT WE HAVE ALREADY DONE.
Frankly, I don’t know where the author arrives at the conclusion that a teraton (one trillion tons) is what gets us to 2C. We are already in a “fool’s climate” where our sun-dimming pollution is cooling the Earth at least 1 degree C.

Astro | 04/30/09
None of you are likely scientists, so just shut the hell up. Most of you people are just some average schmoe who have no clue about anything. This is the real deal science, so all of you idiots just stay out and refrain from leaving idiotic comments. This is what happens when a bunch of ignorant and idiotic masses think that they could have a say on something they know nothing about.

dobermanmacleod | 04/30/09
By the way, it is too simplistic to judge global warming based upon the weight of carbon in the air, because all carbon is not created equal. For instance, compare CO2 and CH4. Each molecule has the same amount of carbon, but the methane is 100 times more powerful the first ten years as carbon dioxide (70 times more powerful the first twenty years, and 23 times more powerful overall).
In other words, the same amount of carbon can be vary in global warming strength by a factor of 100! I need to add that there is more carbon in CH4 contained in ice than all the oil, coal, and natural gas combined. Worse, the ice needs only to melt to release the carbon, whereas the oil, coal, and natural gas release the carbon into the air when burned.


memphisrambler | 04/30/09
If for some reason man’s pollution was causing global cooling, what would be the cry? Glaciers and antarctic sea ice is increasing, and the ocean levels are falling. Colder winters are causing humans to use too much energy for heating. Growing seasons are becoming shorter and crops are diminishing. Humans are freezing to death. People are migrating to warmer climates. Civil unrest everywhere. Frankly I would prefer global warming.

Kane | 04/30/09
Hey, I may be an ‘average schmoe’ but even I know all the evidence indicates global warming is total B.S. (according to the best Exxon Mobil PR research money can buy). Burn it, burn it all! bwaaahahahaha

iamconcerned | 04/30/09
Ok… however informative this article is… I’m sorry but I have to ask… what exactly should I as an individual do? After reading one of the previous comments, I just want to ask, what do you mean attempt to fix something that isn’t necessarily broken? Correct me if I’m wrong, but there are GIGANTIC HOLES in our ozone layer! How much more broken do you want us to get… before we start fixing?
Also… I don’t personally care much for organic chemistry and carbon molecules… but hiding the fact… which is… WE ARE A FEW DECADES AWAY FROM TOTAL MELTDOWN! – by talking about how heavy or light or what kind of chain a molecule forms is NOT helping anything.

Atlas_Rocket | 04/30/09
Astro, your articulate response clearly demonstrates the superior intellect of a true rocket scientist in our midst. Thank you for your words of enlightenment.

dkraft | 04/30/09
Not even an animal would debase itself thus. Wired just lost all credibility publishing this crap. Or maybe it’s April 1st…  No.  All credibility.

roncee | 04/30/09
Ok, you’re on to us. It’s a right wing conspiracy to flood S.F. off the map.

Scriptable | 04/29/09
I’m with the vast majority of scientists and the evidence on this one — rapid and irreversible global climate change is caused by human activity. Pray to Jesus as much as you like, it ain’t gonna change the facts………
The problem with your stance is that the majority of scientists do not support the global warming theories being put forth by Al Gore and his minions. In fact, it’s the other way around; more than twelve times the number of scientists dispute Al Gore and the UN panel’s junk science. Here’s a site that will help you understand that Al and company are full of it!……..

BigEarlXXX | 04/30/09
What about the thousands of tons of CO2 that are emitted by plants everyday while they undergo photosynthesis? I say we kill all the plant life on the earth. It is the ONLY way we can reduce the carbon footprint.

Highlowsel | 04/30/09
OMG the Earth is WARMING! OMG the Earth is COOLING! OMG We’re impacting the PLANET! OMG We’re NOT! Back and forth and all around the argument goes; meanwhile all the evidence piles up. Don’t’cha just feel this must have been what it was like in the early moments on the Titantic?
Anyway; for me it comes to this. I’m a simple man. I tend to think simply. There are over 6 Billion of us on this planet. It’s really a very small, enclosed, room. And we’re ALL smoking big fat cigars. Chain-smoking them in fact. I don’t know about you but the last time I was in such a setting the air got real stale, real quick. This analogy works be it an enclosed room, or (in effect) an enclosed planet. At least it works for me.
Or think of it this way. Why is it people can accept the logic of our current atmosphere, the one we all so blithely live in and breathe, ultimately stemming from planetary BIOLOGICAL forces and functions and yet go on to argue that the human species in all its manifestations as a biological entity is not be having an impact? Is that logical? To paraphrase Ripley (Aliens II), have IQ’s just dropped 20 points in the last generation or two around here?
Anyway…to go along with this simple thinking I’ve a simple conclusion. The impact stems from too many humans in too small a space. We will have to learn to control our numbers as well as our actions or, ultimately, Mother Nature (the final arbitrature so long as this is our sole home) will do it for us.

Morisato | 04/30/09
Thing is the economy is already broken and the way we’re dealing with CO2 emissions and such isn’t really getting us any cleaner by far. In the end, we’ll only actually do something once it happens. Human nature teaches us to act when it is a high state of alert. Only then will people actually come together and do something as a species. Other than that, we could be careless about the environment and others since that is what most of the majority of who we are. Remember, most, not all… but still a majority.
So yes, let us prepare for the worst or enjoy its end and go out with a BANG!

SteveNordquist | 04/30/09
Someone whack AJ with the revised Keynes and point out that that’s an economics science, and that the CO2 graphs are not the same as the original hockey-stick graphs. Thanks.
Then tell them plot coupons for actual burning things are not available at mere hollywood film rates. And reduce AJ’s credit rating to 200 and take away AJ’s FRB TAF access, because of failure to understand consequences or even RTFA.
Oh yeah…is this like, a bad time to disrupt the entire world economy? Because you know, it’s on.
That one is the major one; the idiot who thinks rain cleans atmospheric hydrocarbons, please step up.
Atmospheric cleansing is a temperature-sensitive hydroxy mechanism which is not rain. Rain does nothing special to CO2 gas and only happens below a mile in altitude (a bit higher in Eugene, OR); the atmosphere runs on appreciably to 14km up.
Look up the details and check out the TiO2 self-cleaning megatrend going on. Know that NorthAmerican forestry is bupkiss in actual CO2 management except in its own locale; it’s a net carbon source, especially with the west drying out and sometimes flaring a bit.
See the nice free book boingboing cited, _Sustainable Energy without the hot air.
Cirby, get out on your planet and tell me the ice is all there. Get me some nice thick core samples from this decade that aren’t fishery exhaust. Take at least 2 of your senses with you.
Everyone else, learn to critically read scientific articles. They called the easy journals _Science_ and _Nature_ so it’s easy to spot ‘em and practise. If you do not want to practise, we will not be taking your analysis on any computer models or who manages them. It’s OK, you just won’t be paid.
So I’m coming to Alexis here. You picked the understated quote in isolation and didn’t say 2 degrees warmer from -when-; that made it hard to follow. That ‘the numbers presented in their research are probabilistic’ could not have helped less (and you can find longer terms around, even.) If you rummage in a hydrogen atom, you will hardly ever find that electron or some nucleus, much less a Fermi Surface, but you should still rely on them. What these studies do is pull the trigger on diverse action managing seed stock (in case we get tired of Soylent products) and industrial processes so investments can actually last long enough to make profit. It’s been done! Yeah, I know, DRAM is made out of love and rainbows in oversupply, but try it sometime.

AntonioSosa | 04/30/09
An increasing number of scientists and thinking people all over the world are realizing that man-made global warming is a hoax. More than 700 international scientists dissent over man-made global warming claims. They are now more than 13 times the number of UN scientists (52) who authored the media-hyped IPCC 2007 Summary for Policymakers.
Additionally, 32,000 American scientists have signed onto a petition that states: ”There is no convincing scientific evidence that human release of carbon dioxide, methane, or other greenhouse gases is causing or will, in the foreseeable future, cause catastrophic heating of the Earth’s atmosphere and disruption of the Earth’s climate…”
Progressive (communist) politicians like Obama seem determined to force us to swallow the man-made global warming scam. We need to defend ourselves from the United Nations and these politicians, who threaten our future and the future of our children. Based on a lie, they have already wasted billions and plan to increase taxes and increase the cost of energy, which will limit development, destroy our economy and enslave us.

ElizabethM | 04/30/09
Great article, frightening though it is.

iamconcerned | 05/1/09
Mr. Samagon…….who the hell do you think you are? I have to agree India and China are countries with large populations….but that does NOT mean we emit the most amount of greenhouse gases in the air…
In fact the more the developed countries the more their fuel usage…. I would think that this fact is pretty DUH! Besides this, global powers (I do not wish to mention names, unlike some people here) have indicated the most emissions of carbon levels….so please check your facts.
I would think this is a forum to discuss solutions to problems like these or at least if not productive advice then sensitive consultations. So bickering like this and pointing fingers will not in anyway help. I am also sorry to have done the above myself….but really some people can just get on your nerves!

WHODUNNIT | 05/1/09
Current global warming started about twelve thousand years ago, at the end of the Pleistocene ice age. In Utah, the Great Salt Lake, Utah Lake and the Bonneville Salt Flat were a single Bonneville Lake, twenty-six thousand square miles.
If you look at the edges of this basin, you see “bathtub rings” called wave terraces. As global warming continued, the glaciers melted, leaving dry desert across the North American Southwest.
The Deep Sea Drilling Project found that the Mediterranean Basin has been like the Great Salt Lake four times, as ice ages have lowered Earth’s oceans below the Gibraltar to Morocco “valley”, and villeges lie under considerable sediment due to Man’s burning and harvesting of former jungle and forest from Europe to Iran, leaving rock and subsoil.
The melting of the vast glaciers had absolutely nothing to do with Man, and future ice ages will move over the continents again, as they have many times before.
If Al Gore really cared about global warming, he would scrap his Gulfstream Jet (carbon credits do not suck carbon out of the air, they just make Al millions in unearned profit from those stupid enough to try to manufacture something under “cap and trade”).

snowmaneasy | 05/3/09
RE:Zerocontrol suggests we view http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF_anaVcCXg
This is the most pathetic attempt to justify the spending to date in the name of Global Warming of approx $50 billion….
It is almost as bad as putting the polar bear on the endangered list because a computer model predicts that the ice in the arctic will be gone by 2100….
My take on all of this is that we have lost the plot…

GW Room 103

“Even doubling or tripling the amount of CO2′ will have ‘little impact’ on temps” – from New Zealand Climate Science


Professor Geoffrey G Duffy
DEng, PhD, BSc, ASTC Dip., FRS NZ, FIChemE, CEng

Dr. Geoffrey G. Duffy, a professor in the Department of Chemical and Materials Engineering of the University  of Auckland, NZ. Duffy received the New Zealand Science and Technology Silver Medal, in 2003 from The Royal Society of New Zealand.  And has published 218 journal, peer-reviewed papers and conference papers including 10 patents and 62 technical reports.

Duffy’s full bio is here: http://www.ecm.auckland.ac.nz/staff/ggd


Climate is always changing, and always will.  There are seasons.  There are day-night (diurnal) cycles.  At any one location, heat energy from the sun varies during the day.   Energy from the sun is affected by local conditions and clouds.   Heat absorption depends on whether it impacts water or land … and even then, the type of land (desert, forest, snow covered land), or the layout of the land (continental masses, or islands surrounded by seas).  In some parts of the world temperatures are climbing on average, and in some areas they are dropping.  Warming is not occurring everywhere at once and hence ‘global warming’ is a misnomer.

So what are the key players in ‘Climate Change’?  The major driver is the sun. 


Warming depends on the sun.  Cooling is due to the lack of sun’s energy.  Radiant energy enters the earth’s atmosphere.  Air (on a dry basis) consists mainly of nitrogen 78.08% and oxygen 20.94%.  Of the 0.98% remaining, 95% of that (ie 0.934%, or almost all) is the inert gas argon.  Carbon dioxide CO2 is a trace.  It is less than 400ppm (parts per million) or 0.04% of all the atmosphere (on a dry basis).  Surprisingly, less than a fifth of that is man-made CO2 (0.008% of the total), and that is only since the beginning of the industrial era and the rapid increase in world population.

The atmosphere however is not dry!  The next major constituent of air apart from oxygen and nitrogen is water, as a vapour and a condensed liquid. The atmosphere is comprised of about 1-3% water vapour [At 20°C and 100% humidity there is 0.015kg water/kg air or 1.5%: at 50% Humidity, 0.008kg water/kg air or 0.8%: and in warmer climate at say 30°C, 100% humidity, 0.028kg water/kg air or 2.8%].  Water vapour condenses to form clouds and it is by far the most abundant and significant of the greenhouse gases.  Water accounts for about 95% of the greenhouse effect.  The main atmospheric ‘intermediary’ between the sun and earth is water, and thus it dictates the behaviour of the earth’s climate. Without water vapour in particular and other greenhouse gases in the air in general, the surface air temperatures worldwide would be well below freezing.  The sun clearly must be a much bigger influence on global temperatures than any of the greenhouse gases, even water and CO2.  Carbon dioxide is about 1/60 of water in air!!   It clearly is not the major player even though it is wise to minimise man-made emissions like particulate emissions, and CO2 and other gases where practically possible.

Variable and unstable weather conditions are caused by local as well as large-scale differences in conditions (wind, rain, evaporation, topography etc).  They naturally induce either warming or cooling locally, regionally, or worldwide.  We all have experienced how on a cloudy/sunny day that clouds strongly affect our sensations of both heat and light (infrared energy and visible light).  Clouds do several things!   The atmosphere may be heated by clouds by emitting latent heat of condensation as water vapour condenses.  But clouds can both heat the atmosphere by reducing the amount of radiation transmitted, or cool the atmosphere by reflecting radiation.  So of all the affects that can influence heating and cooling in the atmosphere and on earth, clearly water is the main greenhouse ‘gas’.  Other greenhouse gases (carbon dioxide CO2, methane CH4, oxides of nitrogen etc) are 1/60 to 1/30 smaller in both quantity and effect.  So with all ‘greenhouse gases’ including water, human activity accounts for only minute amounts, just 0.28% of the total greenhouse gases.  If we exclude the key one, water, then human activity would only account for about 5.53% of the total greenhouse effect.  This is minute in the total picture whatever way we look at it.

Unfortunately a lot of estimates and predictions are strongly based on theoretical computer models. Many now even trust models and their ‘theoretical results’ more than actual measurements and facts from reality. Computer analysis requires that the earth be ‘cut’ into small, separate areas (actually volumes), each being analysed for heat input/outputs and other gas/vapour fluxes.  Even so the computational analysis domain size (basic computer grid elements) is huge, 150km x 150km by 1km high, with the current computer power.  It is so large that the effects of even the very large clouds are not individually included; and that includes clouds in our visual horizon.  The spatial resolution is therefore very poor.  Supercomputers cannot give us the accuracy we need.   Modellers therefore use parameters: ‘one factor fits’ all, for each of the domains (a kind of a ‘fudge factor’).  This is sad, as water as vapour in clouds is 30 to 60 times more significant than other minute amounts of other greenhouse gases.  Clearly climate simulations and thus predictions can be in serious error unless the actual cloud effects are well defined in the models.  It is not only the number and spacing of the clouds in that 150 square kilometre area, but also cloud height effects, and cloud structure.  These factors are not accounted for at all.  Typhoons are still not represented in most models.  Many tropical storms and local intense rain downfalls say in a 50km radius cannot be ‘seen’ by the models. Volcanic eruptions and large forest fires are extremely difficult to model. These emit enormous tonnages of small particulate matter that have immense shielding effects and interactions in the atmosphere. The slow diffusion of the smoke on windless days, and the more rapid turbulent dissipation on windy days are both very difficult to model or predict.   We are simply ‘not there yet’ in the simplest events.

The inter-zonal effects of such larger-scale movements like the Gulf stream, or the El Nino–El Nina patterns, are not really greatly understood, and virtually impossible to model.  The ‘noise’ (random fluctuations) in the results from the computer models is often greater than the magnitude of the computer readout results themselves!  It is really surprising why model computer-forecasts are trusted for periods of say 30 – 50 or so years, yet weather forecasts are often very inaccurate even over a 2 or 3 week period.  A good model should be able to ‘predict even the recent past’.  The fact that these models cannot, clearly shows that we should shift our thinking and trust away from computer models to longer-term analysis of actual data, and to understanding the real physical mechanisms and processes (the ‘cause’ and ‘effect’ factors).  Someone has said; “if tomorrow’s weather is inaccurately modelled and predicted, how can we pretend to predict long-term climate changes?”

Linearising short-term, random fluctuations in weather changes and temperature changes is scientifically untenable (weather and climate changes should be studied over very long periods if reliable trends are to be discerned).  Much credence is given to the ‘hockey-stick effect’ of temperature data (upward swing in mean temperature over just the last decade or so) proposed and adopted by the IPPC (Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change).  Nations have grabbed this and are using this to base their policies for actions on global warming effects, and the implementation of controls on carbon-based emissions by carbon taxing.  The very computer programme that gave IPPC those results was recently rigorously tested by inputing random numbers, and the computer-generated readout gave the same upward data trend with this meaningless input.  This makes a mockery out the IPPC report and subsequent actions.  Of course IPPC cannot admit to that now, as their report has been regarded as ‘gospel’ by many nations.  In stunning direct contrast, actual data (not idealistic models) from remote sensors in satellites have continuously measured the world’s temperature and have shown that the trend in the warming period ended in 2001.  Actual satellite measurements show that the temperature has dropped about 0.60°C in the past year, when compared to the mean recorded 1980 temperature.  Observations from the Hadley Centre show that global temperature has changed by less than 0.050°C over the past decade!  Also 1998 was distinctly warmer than 2006 because of the El Nino event.  Why can’t we believe actual accurate data?

A man-made ‘greenhouse’ does not create new heat.   A man-made ‘greenhouse’ can only increase the residence time or hold-up time of heat just like a blanket.  Likewise in the atmosphere, the ‘greenhouse effect’ acts as a mechanism to smooth out fluctuations or rises and falls in temperature (that is advantageous).  It is a dampener!  It cannot be a dominant factor for global temperature change.  It is the sun that gives the heat energy and drives temperature change.  Simply, if the sun’s energy decreases, then the ‘global’ temperature will fall; with or without any greenhouse effect (and vice-versa).

But we must also consider the location of the effects.  The surface of Earth is 70 % water.  Water has a far greater heat carrying capacity than land; or even the atmosphere itself.  Most of the incoming heat from the sun is absorbed by the seas and lakes (simply because they occupy 70% of the world’s surface area).  When we compare that with land masses, a lower proportion of heat is reflected from watery zones to participate in the greenhouse effect.  The greenhouse effect is mainly a phenomenon of the land surface and the atmosphere because land masses lose most of the heat they receive during the day by the action of overnight radiation.  To multiply that effect, the atmosphere loses heat rapidly out into space by rainfall, convection and radiation, despite the greenhouse effect.  So the large surface area of water over the world and the heat storage of water, are far more significant than any atmospheric greenhouse effect.   The oceans really control the transport of water vapour and latent heat changes into the atmosphere (latent heat is heat needed to convert water-to-vapour, or conversely is given up when vapour goes to water), and this is far more significant than sensible heat changes alone (non changes in the state of water).

The seas take a long time to warm up or cool down when compared to land.  This means the storage of total heat by the oceans is immense.   As mentioned, heat energy reaching the land by day is soon radiated back out into space at night.  But there are also zonal differences!  The sun’s energy at the equator is consistent all year round, and in this region the larger proportion of surface area happens to be the ocean water.  The dominant heat loss is primarily at the poles with each pole alternating as the main loser of heat.  As a result there are severe cyclical variations in temperature with the seas and ice caps having the dominant effects in energy changes and hence temperature effects. If the erroneously-called, ‘global warming’ was occurring now we should see it now.  Oceans would be expanding and rising; in fact over the past two years, the global sea level has decreased not increased.  Satellites orbiting the planet every 10 days have measured the global sea level to an accuracy of 3-4 millimeters (2/10 inch inches) [see sealevel.colorado.edu].  Many glaciers are receding but some are increasing.  Glacial shelves at the poles melt and reform every year because there are periodic seasonal changes; these alone show dramatically just what changes can occur from summer-to-winter-to-summer again and again.  Dramatic changes?  Yes; but they are perfectly normal and to be expected.

It is also important to highlight that CO2 is not a pollutant.  It is vital for plant, tree, and food-crop growth.  The basic principle of equilibria shows that when A and B make C and D, then C and D will react to form more A and B.  Hence, as CO2 is produced, it will ‘react’ to produce more oxygen and cellulosic carbon through the well-known chlorophyllic process. Tree, plant, and food-crop production goes up markedly.  With low amounts of CO2 in the air we would have severe food crop deficiencies.  This process occurs with plankton too.  But over and above this chemical-biochemical reaction is the simple physical equilibrium process of solubility.  As the seas cool, more CO2 dissolves in the water, and CO2 in the air reduces (and vice-versa).

Other extremely important insights can be gleaned from the ice-core record.  If CO2 was the main contributor to climate change, then history would reveal that the levels of CO2 would precede the mean temperature rise around the globe.  In fact it is the opposite!  Increases in CO2 have always lagged behind temperature rises and the lag involved is estimated to be 400 to 800 years. The core samples show that there has never been a period when CO2 increases have come before a global temperature increase.  Any recent apparent temperature upward trend cannot be linked to CO2 increases.  There is no physical evidence to support that.  In fact there is the high probability that the more likely explanation of an overall warming trend is that we follow the ‘recent’ Little Ice Age, 400-600 years ago. There was also a Mediaeval Warm Period (MWP) that preceded that too!

The heat from the sun varies over a number of solar cycles which can last from about 9.5 years to about 13.6 years (the main one is the cycle of 11 years).  The earth also has an irregular orbit around the sun. These and other effects like the gravitational effects of the planets of the solar system, combine to affect the sun’s magnetic field. Solar fares and sunspots affect the amount of heat generated from the sun.  In fact, there is an excellent correspondence in general warming on earth with increased sun spot activity.  The graphical correlation of sun-spot activity and the earth’s mean temperature changes is quite amazing.   It appears that the activity of the dominant ‘heat supplier’ (the sun) has a far greater affect on weather (and therefore climate change) than any traces of atmospheric gases.

It is also interesting to note that NASA’s Aqua satellite system has shown that the earth has been cooling since 1998.   This corresponds with measurements from the Argos sub-ocean probes that the ocean is cooling.  This is in stark contrast with the proposals from many ‘climate alarmists’.  The solar effect is huge and overwhelming and there must be time delays in absorbance and build up in energy received by earth and ocean masses.  But the warmer the Earth gets, the faster it radiates heat out into space. This is a self-correcting, self-healing process.

The sun directly drives the El Nino–El Nina current motions that drive temperature changes world-wide.   The sun sets up evaporative cycles, drives larger air and water currents or cycles, and changes weather patterns and therefore climate change.  The varying degrees of lag and out-of-phase changes cause periodic oceanic oscillations.  The El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO cycle) turns from warming to cooling depending on the net warming or cooling effect of the sun. This occurs quite rapidly.  From about 1975 to 2000 there was a strong El Nino warming period (a positive Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO).  Now there is a La Nina period, and this has a cooling or decrease in warming (negative PDO).  In essence the ENSO and PDO switching is caused directly by the sun. Also there are similar periodic oscillations in other oceans (Atlantic and the Arctic oceans).

The panic to do something about climate change has led to some unrealistic and unsustainable actions.  For example, Bio-fuels from grain will greatly increase food prices and roughly 30 million people are expected to be severely deprived.  The USA will use up to 30% of the annual corn crop for alcohol production for vehicles alone.  Ethanol production requires too much energy to be economical.  The actual cost/liter is much the same as other liquid fuels, but the liters/kilometer consumed by vehicles is much higher than petrol, and well-meaning motorists will have to use far more ethanol.  Just one tankful of ethanol for a SUV is obtained from enough corn to feed one African for a year. Worldwide the ethanol plant subsidies in 2008 will total $15 billion.  A 2008 study on bio-fuels has shown that the CO2 emissions will actually double if carbon-rich forests are cut down.

Well, what about all the latest pictures, videos and TV programmes on climate change?   Yes, there is a lot happening!  Weather patterns are changing in many parts of the world and some catastrophic events seem to point to the earth warming.  Even over our lifetime we have observed many weather pattern changes where we live.  But what we observe (the ‘effect’) in a relatively small time-span cannot honestly be connected directly to any supposed ‘cause’ without investigating all the mechanisms that cause change.  It is so easy to grab onto the notion that the increase in fossil-fuel burning and subsequent growth in carbon dioxide in the atmosphere is directly the major cause.  Even from season to season we see snow and ice-covered mountains thaw, and massive areas of the Antarctic ice shelf melt, but in just 6 or so months they are restored.  We are not alarmed at these annual changes!  So why can’t we see that climate changes occurring all over the world now (not as big as these dramatic annual changes) are simply similar but on a larger time-scale.  We have the ice-core and sea-bed core evidence at least to show us that this has happened in recent centuries.  These are in harmony as to changes in CO2 with time and variations in temperature over time.  There is no indication that one causes the other!   History also tells us that there have been significant cooling periods over the last 1,000 years.

Climate and local weather are forever changing.  Sure, we must minimise pollution of our air and water systems with obnoxious chemical and particulates, and not treat them as ‘sewers’.  But even doubling or trebling the amount of carbon dioxide will virtually have little impact, as water vapour and water condensed on particles as clouds dominate the worldwide scene and always will.


Giga tonnes Gt (BILLION tonnes)
Atmosphere                                                   750 Gt
Oceans – surface                                       1,000 Gt
Oceans –  intermediate / deep                  38,000 Gt
Vegetation (soil, detritus)                             2,200 Gt
41,950 Gt

Annual EXCHANGE of CO2

Ocean surface – Atmosphere                              90 Gt
Vegetation – atmosphere                                     60 Gt
Between Marine biota and Ocean Surface          50 Gt
Oceans( surface-to-deep)                                  100 Gt
Human emissions* (coal, oil, nat. gas)        6 Gt  <2% 306 Gt

“Carbon dioxide CO2 is a trace. It is less than 400ppm (parts per million) or 0.04% of all the atmosphere (on a dry basis). Surprisingly, less than a fifth of that is man-made CO2 (0.008% of the total), and that is only since the beginning of the industrial era and the rapid increase in world population.”
Imagine that!!!

Richard deSousa:
Were Dr. Duffy and George Bush separated at birth? 😉 Seriously, Dr. Duffy’s post is quite impressive. There has been studies by other scientists relating to the saturation of CO2 in the atmosphere but the AGWers seem to rely on their computers to predict that CO2 drives the ever increasing temperatures up. I can’t quite believe their virtual reality scenario.

Andy Schlei:
This is a great article. I’m sending it to many, many friends.

Richard deSousa:
Actually, I wasn’t commenting about ears but the striking facial resemblance.

Steven Hill:
Well, that about covers what I have read and think about Man Made Climate Change….
There is no climate change that man has caused.
It’s that big large orange ball in the sky.

David Segesta:
Must be some typos here; “At 200C and 100% humidity there is 0.015kg water/kg air … and in warmer climate at say 300C”
Where is it 200C or 300C ?
BTW OT But here’s an article from Patrick Michaels on the “United States’ Climate Change Science Program (CCSP).”

Bern Bray:
“less than a fifth of that is man-made CO2 (0.008% of the total)”
Go into your favorite text editor and type a period, then print the page. That’s about .008% percent of the total (depending on font size).
Please explain to me how that little dot is going to cause the rest of the page to burst into flames.

I admire the courage of Dr. Duffy. I hope he has tenure. I expect that the usual crowd of AGW promoters will be writing off his article as another Exxon-financed denier/delayer piece written by a non-climate scientist.
Since I do not expect the major media to carry this article, I thank you Anthony for doing your part in making the truth available through your blog.

David L:
I think it should read 200 or 300 degrees K. Actually, degrees K doesn’t make sense either, I think it’s simply a missing decimal point.
REPLY: degree symbols ° got transmogrified somehow, fixed now – Anthony

Leif Svalgaard:
(Duffy) – The heat from the sun varies over a number of solar cycles which can last from about 9.5 years to about 13.6 years (the main one is the cycle of 11 years). The earth also has an irregular orbit around the sun. These and other effects like the gravitational effects of the planets of the solar system, combine to affect the sun’s magnetic field. Solar fares and sunspots affect the amount of heat generated from the sun. In fact, there is an excellent correspondence in general warming on earth with increased sun spot activity.
We have been over this before, but the barycenter and planetary tides mechanisms do not operate on the Sun. This is bad science [not even that, actually, pseudo-science, rather], and detracts from whatever merit the article may otherwise have.

Off topic – first upturn in Arctic sea ice extent http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/plot.csv Site here http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/en/home/seaice_extent.htm

Alan S. Blue:
With 218 publications under his belt, he’s well past any concerns about getting tenure.

John F. Pittman:
I think it is 20 degrees (symbol) C. That is standard atmosphere, standard temperature pressure. With his education, one the first things you have to learn is 20 C dry and wet, which is which, and what it means when you solve engineering problems.

How much heat loss do the Ice Age Glaciers at their hight represent?
If the Oceans dropped 200 feet and all that water was water vapor before it was precipitated out into SNOW ( not just water – you have to add both the heat of vaporization and the heat of fusion ) – then what is that heat loss?
Has anyone noticed that on a cold winter day you are cold indoors, despite the room being the same temp as in the summer? What is the effect of cooling off the upper atmosphere to its ability to transmit heat into space more efficiently?
I like his point about typhoons – they move enormous amounts of heat into space – and they are not modelled.

Mark Nodine:
David Segesta (13:41:55) : Must be some typos here; “At 200C and 100% humidity there is 0.015kg water/kg air … and in warmer climate at say 300C”
I think the “0? before the “C” was supposed to be a degree symbol.
REPLY: Fixed thanks, pasting somehow killed the ° symbols. -Anthony

Craig D. Lattig:
As Leif points out, there is a “Hmmmm” moment in this article… but short of sending out multiple copies of Roy Spencers book, this is the best primer on climate I’ve seen to send out to my liberal arts friends who walk around clutching Al Gore’s book to their chests while hinting that I am an uninformed fossil… or worse. I’m passing it around with an evil grin attached….. cdl

Ric Werme:
David Segesta: Must be some typos here; “At 200C and 100% humidity there is 0.015kg water/kg air … and in warmer climate at say 300C”
Where is it 200C or 300C ?
It should read 20°C or 30°C, assuming I got the degree symbol right, &deg;, assuming I got the ampersand symbol right.
Oh, there’s one I can cut & paste, 20°C or 30°C
Then there is the text where they use lower-case o , e.g. 20oC. Argh. I generally just say 20C or 293K or 68F and that seems to work okay.

Chris H:
I guess it’s just me, but this article just sounds like a regurgitation of everything us AGW skeptics have been saying – he’s not adding anything new, not even a new perspective (at least from my super skimming of it).

Alex Llewelyn:
Off topic, but interesting BBC article about Carbon capture & storage: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7584151.stm
You won’t be able to read most of the article if you haven’t got a subscription, but here’s a New Scientist article saying Stone Age man held off an ice age by releasing greenhouse gases from farming and land use change.
Absolute nonsense of course.

Another typo: IPPC instead of IPCC, but a good summary, useful for forwarding to politicians.

Stephen Wilde:
Hmmm. Some of the phrases are remarkably similar to phrases in my series of articles at http://co2sceptics.com/
I’m gratified that he seems to agree with me on those points.

Neil Fisher:
Hi Leif, you said: “We have been over this before, but the barycenter and planetary tides mechanisms do not operate on the Sun.”
I wouldn’t doubt you on anything solar related, but this seems disingenuous to me in face of SIM correlations and (correct) predictions WRT sunspot numbers, ENSO events etc. I watched these unfold and they are spookily accurate to date. I guess that it could be a coincidence, but it sure seems to me that such analyses have predictive power. We shall no doubt have to wait and see, but I am curious to know what it would take for you (and others) to accept that there may be something to this after all. To date, I see 10 years of climate predictions and 4 ENSO events correctly predicted, which is pretty impressive (especially the ENSO events – years in advance is significantly better than any other system). Of course, they can be said to be somewhat vague, but what climate/weather prediction is not?

Hmmmm, Stephen Wilde, I visit your Site constantly and I think you are right!
But this is what it’s all about….getting the PROPER, ACCURATE, stories out there to inform and explain how much of a Hoax AWG is….A number of People here stated that they were going to tell their Friends…Yes, and tell the One’s especially on the Fence. You will not convince the True Lieberals…They are TOTALLY on Emotions, no common sense!! Al Gore and Consensis need to be knocked down..

Michael Hauber:
Funny thing, the sun represents only about 0.001% of the entire sky when we look up. How could anything so small have any influence on our climate..

Good counterpunch Michael H, even if I don’t agree with your point of view.

Leif Svalgaard:
Neil Fisher: “To date, I see 10 years of climate predictions and 4 ENSO events correctly predicted, which is pretty impressive (especially the ENSO events – years in advance is significantly better than any other system). Of course, they can be said to be somewhat vague, but what climate/weather prediction is not?”
The problem is that the Barycenter/Tides/SIMS, etc [I will call them BTSs from now on] are not unique in their predictions. There are many other ’solar’ mechanisms that their adherents claim have predictive power and many have predicted that with a less active sun, we should get some cooling. Since BTSs are unphysical [the energy is not there, there are no forces, the tides are 1 millimeter high, etc] one would prudently go with one of the physically plausible models if one were to entertain the solar influence idea.
It reminds me of this anecdote: In deepest Africa there is a tribe that claims that beating of tam-tam drums during a solar eclipse will restore the Sun. They are spookily accurate: in fact, their method has never failed.

Having lived in Auckland, NZ for a couple of years I am absolutely amazed that a Kiwi has come out and relied on science and observation in this debate. Generally Kiwis are all about feelgood symbols and looney left wing politics. It all about the “vibe”, even more so than Canadians. (Gross generalisation but fun!)
Leif Svalgaard has identified a weakness in the article and there were other typos (eg. “IPPC”). They do detract, but having said that it was a good summation of many issues in terms lay people, like me, can understand.

Robert Wood:
In all the Anglosphere countries, except India, global warming is becoming a hot political issue – amongst the political class, not the people. New Zealand is most advanced, with the labour government trying to push through parliament an ugly climate control bill, or whatever it is called.
But, as in Britain and Australia, the people are saying: “Hang on, you want energy to be even more expensive?”.
We have a federal election coming up in Canada where the opposition “Liberal” party is running on a $14 billion tax grab under the excuse of saving the planet. They call it the Greenshift, whereby good honest hard-earned green money is shifted from your pocket to the state coffers.

Leif said: “We have been over this before, but the barycenter and planetary tides mechanisms do not operate on the Sun. This is bad science [not even that, actually, pseudo-science, rather], and detracts from whatever merit the article may otherwise have.”
If by before you mean the “Astronomical Society of Australia” post, then you haven’t shown this is pseudo-science, only that you disagree. Others, including Ian Wilson, held positions that this is science. Maybe not a well established theory, but it seems there is either a correlation of multiple events, or the AU journal and peer-review process isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. That seems to be effectively what you are saying.
“We present evidence to show that changes in the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate are synchronized with changes in its orbital motion about the barycentre of the Solar System. We propose that this synchronization is indicative of a spin–orbit coupling mechanism operating between the Jovian planets and the Sun.” http://www.publish.csiro.au/nid/138/paper/AS06018.htm
Professor Duffy pointed out some bad science, and it is curious you didn’t comment on that, on a blog that is concerned with AGW. You don’t even say whether there is any merit at all in this post’s article at all. Could you explain the science behind your comment below concerning the cause or mechanism for why big cycles start out with a bang, or is your comment based on a “well it always seemed to happen that way in the past” observation?
“The big [cycles], they start out with a bang. One month, there may be none, the next month they may be all over the place,” Svalgaard told New Scientist.” http://space.newscientist.com/article/dn14652-suns-face-virtually-spotfree-for-months.html
Leif: “It reminds me of this anecdote: In deepest Africa there is a tribe that claims that beating of tam-tam drums during a solar eclipse will restore the Sun. They are spookily accurate: in fact, their method has never failed.”
If that really is a good anecdote, then replace the beating of the tam-tams with an unintelligent source or force, and explain the correlation.

Michael Hauber: “Funny thing, the sun represents only about 0.001% of the entire sky when we look up. How could anything so small have any influence on our climate..”
I suppose if one were to throw out the distinction of radiative heat produced by .001% of empty sky versus .001% of thermonuclear sky (the sun) that would be a relevant point. I don’t think anyone would disagree that it gets colder when the sun is down or covered.
Also, what is the capacity for CO2 to store heat versus water vapor versus the other common elements and compounds in the atmosphere?

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “the AU journal and peer-review process isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. That seems to be effectively what you are saying.
Peer-review seems to have failed for many AGW-papers too, wouldn’t you say? Or maybe the peers also have an agenda… Could you explain the science behind your comment below concerning the cause or mechanism for why big cycles start out with a bang, or is you comment based on a “well it always seemed to happen that way in the past” observation?”
The straw man you trot out is easy to deal with [you could have done it yourself]. Here is the argument:
Assume that all cycles have the same length, say 11 years. Assume that maximum comes about halfway through the cycle, after 5 years. A large cycle with 200 ’spots’ at maximum will then have an average growth rate of 200/5 = 40 spots/year [coming out with a bang]. A small cycle with 50 spots at maximum will have a growth rate of 50/5 = 10 spots/year [coming out with a whimper].
Detailed dynamo models can do better, they predict that stronger cycles are shorter, and that their maximum comes earlier than halfway. This just makes the growth rate even faster [more BANG].
In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it.

Leon Brozyna:
A fine Executive Summary for “the science is not settled” position. Now if someone would just present a copy to Senator McCain…

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “If that really is a good anecdote, then replace the beating of the tam-tams with an unintelligent source or force, and explain the correlation.”
[sigh] Correlations don’t need to be explained as they are not necessarily causations.

Ric Werme:
Craig D. Lattig: “As Leif points out, there is a “Hmmmm” moment in this article….but short of sending out multiple copies of Roy Spencers book, this is the best primer on climate I’ve seen to send out to my liberal arts friends who walk around clutching Al Gore’s book to their chests while hinting that I am an uninformed fossil… or worse. I’m passing it around with an evil grin attached…”
I think Lucy’s http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/Science/Curious.htm is a much better thing to give to environmentalists. It covers more terrain, has good links, and is written by an environmentalist.

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “Professor Duffy pointed out some bad science, and it is curious you didn’t comment on that, on a blog that is concerned with AGW. You don’t even say whether there is any merit at all in this post’s article at all.”
That is because the question whether on physical grounds the BTSs make sense have nothing at all to do with AGW. I speak of what I [think I] know and leave the rest to whomever has an interest in that.

Leif Svalgaard: “It reminds me of this anecdote: In deepest Africa there is a tribe that claims that beating of tam-tam drums during a solar eclipse will restore the Sun. They are spookily accurate: in fact, their method has never failed.”
Yet science also proceeds using similar logic. Don’t want to get all meta here but I doubt there are many models that haven’t been “proven” by statistical correlation to experiment. Until a better explanation is provided the tribe is behaving and believing reasonably.
I tend to agree that small effects (like BTSs, as you call them) are unlikely causes but any correlation to surface features still tickles curiosity and until it can be shown to be purely coincidence, they can’t be ruled out.
By “better” explanation, I of course mean something that can be demonstrated to work as well as the drum beating method vs. a purely logical argument.

Leif: “the AU journal and peer-review process isn’t worth the paper it’s written on. That seems to be effectively what you are saying. Peer-review seems to have failed for many AGW-papers too, wouldn’t you say? Or maybe the peers also have an agenda…”
I haven’t seen any AGW papers from the AU journal, so I couldn’t comment on whether peer-review has failed or they are following an agenda. However, I see no correlation in the IPCC models and reality, other than their drawing a target around the arrow in the side of the barn and calling it prediction.
Could you explain the science behind your comment below concerning the cause or mechanism for why big cycles start out with a bang, or is you comment based on a “well it always seemed to happen that way in the past” observation?
“The straw man you trot out is easy to deal with [you could have done it yourself]. Here is the argument:”
I don’t see where I provided a strawman. I simply asked you about what you were quoted as saying. A strawman is an attack on a false position of your opponent. You either said what NewScientist claimed or you didn’t. If you didn’t, it’s not my fault. Seems you have no problem with it, though. So did you answer my question about mechanism below?
“Assume that all cycles have the same length, say 11 years. Assume that maximum comes about halfway through the cycle, after 5 years. A large cycle with 200 ’spots’ at maximum will then have an average growth rate of 200/5 = 40 spots/year [coming out with a bang]. A small cycle with 50 spots at maximum will have a growth rate of 50/5 = 10 spots/year [coming out with a whimper]. ”
I’m not going to assume anything, especially that cycles all have the same length. And an average certainly can not be used to determine whether a cycle “comes out with a bang”. Perhaps you have a different perception of what that phrase means, though. Rate can change during an ascending cycle and still be a big or mediocre cycle. This depends on cycle length, which I’m sure you are aware. I asked you for the cause of your claim, and this ain’t it.
Detailed dynamo models can do better, they predict that stronger cycles are shorter, and that their maximum comes earlier than halfway. This just makes the growth rate even faster [more BANG].
So are these models based on a known and understood mechanism?
In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it.
I didn’t see the argument. I saw a theoretical cycle of a certain length and a certain amount of spots, an unsupported claim of models, and a “it’s always happened that way in the past” correlation.
The next cycle could start out with a bang (say your 40 spots a year), you would (it appears) predict a “big” cycle, then max out after a year, and your prediction would be wrong. Is that not possible? If not, why not? What is the mechanism?
Looking at these cycles, I don’t see where one could predict the peak (big one) based on the upslope.

Leif: “[sigh] Correlations don’t need to be explained as they are not necessarily causations,”
Double sigh. Science progresses by observing correlations. You’ve done it yourself: “In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it.”

Leif Svalgaard:
Ric Werme: “I think Lucy’s http://www.greenworldtrust.org.uk/Science/Curious.htm is a much better thing to give to environmentalists. It covers more terrain, has good links, and is written by an environmentalist.”
As long as she doesn’t pollute it with BTS [as she was considering].

Yet science also proceeds using similar logic. Don’t want to get all meta here but I doubt there are many models that haven’t been “proven” by statistical correlation to experiment. Until a better explanation is provided the tribe is behaving and believing reasonably.
Granted that much science is done in order to explain some new phenomenon that has been observed, but some of the grandest theories were not. Einstein’s General Relativity [and even Special Relativity, as he claims that he did not know about the Michelson-Morley experiment] and Dirac’s relativistic quantum mechanics were not, but on the other hand predicted brand-new stuff, never dreamed off before.
I tend to agree that small effects (like BTSs, as you call them) are unlikely causes but any correlation to surface features still tickles curiosity and until it can be shown to be purely coincidence, they can’t be ruled out.
‘Scientific Relativism’ – that every theory is good as any other – is false. And in science, nothing can be ruled out, but to be ‘ruled in’, theories have to mesh with the existing corpus of existing theories or uniquely explain something observed that has no explanation within existing paradigms. [I don’t want to go too Meta, either; so, perhaps, enough about the philosophy…]

kum dollison:
Until I see some Proof that this is anything more than opinion, I’ll have to assume that everything, else, he said was just opinion, also.
What makes is worse is, after several years of studying this I’m 99.9% convinced that the above statement is NOT true.
Yikes, the part that I need to see the proof on is this: For example, Bio-fuels from grain will greatly increase food prices and roughly 30 million people are expected to be severely deprived.

Robert Wood, I believe you have misread the Canadian Liberal ‘The Green Shift’ (not to be confused with Green Shift Inc, who is suing the Liberal Party over use of the name) plan.
The Green Shift is a plan to tax fuel use in combination with wide reaching income tax cuts that should help lessen the impact to citizens.
Their plan seems pretty sound, you increase taxes on fuel use, you send rebates to income earners and seniors, you destroy the manufacturing and energy sectors and they move all their jobs off shore, price of good increase causing the central bank to increase rates widening the unemployment fall out as people lose their businesses and homes, and when nobody can afford anything . . . voila . . . no more CO2 problem.
As you can tell, I won’t be voting Liberal thanks to ‘The Green Shift’.

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “Maybe it is just because English is not my mother tongue, but since you wrote: “the AU journal and peer-review process isn’t worth the paper it’s written on.” I interpreted that to mean peer-review in general, otherwise I would have expected: “the AU journal and its peer-review process…” On the other hand the “isn’t” is maybe a sign that could be interpreted to mean that its wasn’t intended.
I don’t see where I provided a straw man. Since the question did not start a new paragraph, I interpreted it as being a continuation of the general criticism of me within the first half of the paragraph. A straw man is an attack on a false position of your opponent.
I interpreted your question [and the use of “Well, ..” as an attempt to cast doubt on my statement of our understanding of the growth of the cycle, relegating it to the same status of the correlations that I don’t support. So did you answer my question about mechanism below? I’m not going to assume anything.”
This sounds very nice, but seems to be intended to cast doubt on somebody that does make simplifying assumptions to illustrate the point [the physicist who starts out “assume a spherical cow of uniform density” when trying to explain something to farmer Jones…]
Rate can change during an ascending cycle and it may still be a big or mediocre cycle. This depends on cycle length, which I’m sure you are aware. I asked you for the cause of your claim, and this ain’t it.
Just after the calculation of the average rate, I, of course, relaxed the assumptions and pointed out that a more sophisticated treatment is possible.
So are these models based on a known and understood mechanism? A ‘model’ in my use of the word is an encoding of our understanding of a physical process [‘known’ is too big a word] so my answer here is a qualified yes.
I didn’t see the argument. I saw a theoretical cycle of a certain length and a certain amount of spots, an unsupported claim of models, and a “it’s always happened that way in the past” correlation.
See, it is as I suspected, an attempt to show that I too just rely on past correlations.
The next cycle could start out with a bang (say your 40 spots a year), you would (it appears) predict a “big” cycle, then max out after a year, and your prediction would be wrong. Is that not possible? If not, why not? What is the mechanism?
[sigh] almost anything is “possible” [is it possible that the lottery ticket I just bought will bring me untold riches? – certainly, but I’ll not bank on it, or rather: my creditors won’t]. The question is: “it is plausible?”.
The following paper may give you a feeling for the answer to that question: Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, Volume 381, Issue 4, pp. 1527-1542, 2007 [also at http://arxiv.org/abs/0707.2258]  Solar activity forecast with a dynamo model  Jie Jiang, Piyali Chatterjee and Arnab Rai Choudhuri1  ABSTRACT  Although systematic measurements of the Sun’s polar magnetic field exist only from mid-1970s, other proxies can be used to infer the polar field at earlier times. The observational data indicate a strong correlation between the polar field at a sunspot minimum and the strength of the next cycle, although the strength of the cycle is not correlated well with the polar field produced at its end. This suggests that the Babcock-Leighton mechanism of poloidal field generation from decaying sunspots involves randomness, whereas the other aspects of the dynamo process must be reasonably ordered and deterministic. Only if the magnetic diffusivity within the convection zone is assumed to be high (of order 10^12 cm2/s), can we can explain the correlation between the polar field at a minimum and the next cycle. We give several independent arguments that the diffusivity must be of this order. In a dynamo model with diffusivity like this, the poloidal field generated at the mid-latitudes is advected toward the poles by the meridional circulation and simultaneously diffuses towards the tachocline, where the toroidal field for the next cycle is produced. To model actual solar cycles with a dynamo model having such high diffusivity, we have to feed the observational data of the poloidal field at the minimum into the theoretical model. We develop a method of doing this in a systematic way. Our model predicts that cycle 24 will be a very weak cycle…
The important sentence is this one:“the Babcock-Leighton mechanism of poloidal field generation from decaying sunspots involves randomness, whereas the other aspects of the dynamo process must be reasonably ordered and deterministic”. Namely that the start of a cycle must be reasonably ordered and deterministic. This bears on your “you would (it appears) predict a “big” cycle, then max out after a year, and your prediction would be wrong”, in the sense that the orderly and deterministic start of the cycle would make that unlikely [and that is all we can say].
Looking at these cycles, I don’t see where one could predict the peak (big one) based on the upslope.
If you look at the red curve, maybe you can see it better. The first two cycles are, perhaps, easier.
Or compare a really small cycle http://www.dxlc.com/solar/cycl12.html with a large cycle http://www.dxlc.com/solar/cycl19.html
Some of the ‘jitter’ you see that looks like ‘false starts’ that fizzle are just left-over stuff from the previous cycle. We can tell from the magnetic polarities if a ’spurt’ is really new-cycle spots or old-cycle remnants.
The main point is that we think we know why there is such a difference in slope [e.g. see the paper that I cited] and why we think that we can use the slope in predicting the next cycle. Do I have to say that this is a difficult business and that prediction is hard? On the other hand, we are not stumbling in the dark either, and there are good physical reasons for why we think as we do, and that it is not based on just coincidences and not-understood correlations.

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “Double sigh. Science progresses by observing correlations. You’ve done it yourself: “In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it.”
No, you misunderstand how science works. What I cited was the observation of a prediction coming from our understanding of the process.

Ravalli County News » Blog Archive » “Even doubling or tripling the amount of CO2′ will have ‘little impact’ on temps”
[…] Interesting, but fairly long article by Professor Geoffrey G Duffy. […]

Mark Nodine:
From the original article: It is really surprising why model computer-forecasts are trusted for periods of say 30 – 50 or so years, yet weather forecasts are often very inaccurate even over a 2 or 3 week period. This is something that was one of my primary beefs about the global circulation models when I first started studying up on AGW in January.
It seemed completely unreasonable to me to expect that solving the Navier-Stokes equation from unknown boundary conditions on a fixed-size grid that’s obviously too large to deal with turbulence could produce any kind of non-garbage answer.
However, in thinking further about the problem, it seems to me that the situation may well be analogous to making statements about an ensemble average using thermodynamics without having to solve the wave equations for every particle that makes up the system. In other words, it may be possible/reasonable to predict macroscopic trends without being able to model all the microscopic details.
Mind you, I’m still not sold on the validity of the GCMs, especially given our limited knowledge of how to model water vapor, but the possibility of developing a reasonable long-term model does not seem as far-fetched as it once did.

Graeme Rodaughan:
Hi Kum, Re Bio-Fuels impact on food prices. Check out:
Obviously if Governments direct TAX subsidies to create an industry that inefficiently turns food into fuel – there will be those who suffer.
IMO, without tax subsidies the scale of bio-fuels would be very much reduced.

Neil Fisher:
Leif: “Since BTSs are unphysical [the energy is not there, there are no forces, the tides are 1 millimeter high, etc] one would prudently go with one of the physically plausible models if one were to entertain the solar influence idea.”
OK, thanks for replying – I wish there were more such as yourself willing to edu-macate us plebs. 😉 I shall continue to keep an eye on this, as I have for the last decade or so – it’s nothing if not interesting (to me, anyway)!

Leif Svalgaard:
Mark Nodine: “However, in thinking further about the problem, it seems to me that the situation may well be analogous to making statements about an ensemble average using thermodynamics without having to solve the wave equations for every particle that makes up the system. In other words, it may be possible/reasonable to predict macroscopic trends without being able to model all the microscopic details.”
I would strongly agree with Mark. We have the same problem in Astro- and Solar physics. A good example is the evolutionary track in the Hertzprung-Russell diagram of a star. We can calculate the variations over millions, even billions of years of the size, temperature, and luminosity of stars from their mass and chemical composition. Or at the other end of the time-scale, simulate the explosion and implosion of supernovae.
For all this to work, we need to know the physics and the boundary conditions. It should, of course, be granted that an evolving star or an exploding supernova is actually a much simpler system than the Earth’s climate. But the task does not seem impossible.

Graeme Rodaughan:
OT: “Also a quote: “Food and Agriculture Organisation (FAO) Director General Jacques Diouf agrees. He says it is incomprehensible that “$11bn-$12bn (£5.6bn-£6.1bn) a year in subsidies and protective tariff policies have the effect of diverting 100 million tonnes of cereals from human consumption, mostly to satisfy a thirst for vehicles”. link is http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7435439.stm.”
I wonder if James Henson will call for the “CEOs of Bio-Fuel Companies” to be tried for “crimes against Humanity” refer to http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jun/23/fossilfuels.climatechange
The un-intended consequences of poorly thought out AGW based policies are coming home to roost.
Is this the Precautionary Principle at work? Act without evidence in case something bad happens.
Doctors have a principle “First do no harm” that I wish that our politicians would adopt.

Leif: “No, you misunderstand how science works. What I cited was the observation of a prediction coming from our understanding of the process.”
I believe I understand how science works well enough. You cited nothing, Leif. Nor was prediction in what you claimed: “In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it.” That is not a reference to a prediction come true.
Cite some predictions, and let’s see them come true. If they don’t, according to scientific methodology, your theory is falsified, or at least on very shaky ground. The NASA guy has made two or three, and they haven’t come to pass yet. In the meantime, why haven’t you simply provided the cause for your claim of “big cycles start with a bang”?

David VK2IDM:
GISS Surface Temperature Analysis  Global Temperature Trends: 2007 Summation  http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/2007/
Having read the above summation, a maunder minimum would seem to be the best thing that could happen right now. Not because it might cool the earth but simply for the timely testing of the GISS model and the settling of many arguments.
FTR, I find the above summary a bit contradicting WRT the stated almost nil forcing of SI compared to GHG and yet they still include SI as an input to their short term climate forecast.

Pamela Gray:
Leif, would you speak to coronal holes? The k-index indicated stuff from a recurring coronal hole put a ding in Earth’s magnetosphere Wednesday night enough to open up some radio frequencies and create some northern lights. In fact, its been dinging us everytime the hole rotates into view. This time the ding was greater. It takes about 36 hours for a coronal hole event to reach us. With solar wind up, would we be getting some cosmic ray hits that would result in higher counts here on Earth? Also, where is this coronal hole? Aren’t they supposed to be near the poles during minimums? Does the stuff that comes out of them bend around to give us a direct hit? And finally, how are holes different from CME’s?

Leif: “On the other hand, we are not stumbling in the dark either, and there are good physical reasons for why we think as we do, and that it is not based on just coincidences and not-understood correlations.”
Fine, but that doesn’t mean that correlations alone are pseudo-scientific.
Your good physical reasons do not seem to be ironclad, either. A model or a theory explains and predicts the actions of what you call good physical reasons. There is no “I think” in science, there is either support or falsification. So until you are able to understand and predict with accuracy the behavior of the Sun, I suggest you not come down so hard on those that observe correlations and admit to not knowing the underlying mechanism, as does Ian Wilson’s AU paper. He didn’t identify a mechanism for example as “planetary tides”, you did. At least the abstract reads “However, we are unable to suggest a plausible underlying physical cause for the coupling.”
But I see nothing pseudo-scientific in “We present evidence to show that changes in the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate are synchronized with changes in its orbital motion about the barycentre of the Solar System”, assuming that this evidence is observable. What I would call pseudo-science is to make claims about cause or mechanism and predictions or models from that knowledge which are wrong.

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “Why haven’t you simply provided the cause for your claim of “big cycles start with a bang”?”
I think I did that.

J. Hansford:
Michael Hauber: “Funny thing, the sun represents only about 0.001% of the entire sky when we look up. How could anything so small have any influence on our climate..” Which is a perfect example of perception as opposed to reality…. The sun is percieved to be small… But it is actually huge… Thus its effects are substantial.
Now what he is trying to parallel, is the small amount of CO2 in the atmosphere versus its effect…. However, CO2 is a small portion of the atmosphere… Not an apparent smallness of effect because of distance. But a real difference…. CO2 is at small percentages and is insignificant.
The next argument he would introduce would be that cyanide is poisonous at minute quantities… Wrong again as per the explanation above… This goes to toxicity. Cyanide in reality has certain physiological properties that are real, known and has a huge actual metabolic effect… So it isn’t a small effect but instead a large effect.
CO2 has no large and measurable effect….. Otherwise the empirical evidence would support it without a doubt with overwhelming observations of effect. CO2’s effect on climate must be modeled in order for the Flawed Hypothesis of AGW to continue its shambling existence…. Cyanide needs no modeling to prove its toxicity. You gasp, turn blue and fall down.
Just thought I’d reiterate, the actual from the apparent, the real from the fantasy.

Leif Svalgaard:
Pamela Gray: “It takes about 36 hours for a coronal hole event to reach us. With solar wind up, would we be getting some cosmic ray hits that would result in higher counts here on Earth?” – Because the solar wind speed is higher in the hole than next to it, as the sun rotates, wind of different speeds are emitted in the same direction, where the fast wind then runs into the slow wind and compresses the material [and tangles up its magnetic field]. It are those compression regions that turn away cosmic rays, so a strong recurrent hole will result in a [small, a few percent] recurrent variation of the cosmic ray flux. You see that here: http://helios.izmiran.rssi.ru/COSRAY/days.htm
“Also, where is this coronal hole? Aren’t they supposed to be near the poles during minimums? Does the stuff that comes out of them bend around to give us a direct hit?” – Here you can see both the polar coronal hole [the North pole is tipped towards up, so we see that one better]: http://sohowww.nascom.nasa.gov/data/realtime/eit_195/512/
“The high-speed stream does not come out the polar hole [although there is some ‘bending down’].” – It comes from the dark area near the equator [a little bit south] and a bit to the right of the center.
“And finally, how are holes different from CME’s?” – Yes, very much so. A CME is kind of the opposite of a coronal hole. coronal holes are areas in the corona where the density is very low [hence their darkness] basically because the stuff that was in the middle of the coronal holes has left the Sun.
A CME cmoes from a region of high-density coronal matter tied up and trapped in a sort of magnetic ‘hang-mat’. If the magnetic field that holds up the matter becomes perturbed it may ’snap’ and expel the matter. This can be directly seen: the trapped stuff [called a ‘filament’] begins to vibrate and shake for minutes or even hours before ‘blowing’. The stuff is connected magnetically to the sun and as a long ‘tongue’ intrudes into the ambient solar wind and further compresses it. The end effect of this hitting the Earth is almost the same as that from a normal solar wind compression region I talked about first: magnetic storms, aurorae, cosmic rays variations, energetic particles, etc.

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: “but that doesn’t mean that correlations alone are pseudo-scientific.” – Yes if the correlations have an unphysical component. The sun feels no forces in its orbital motion about the barycentre of the Solar System [except for the insignificant tidal forces] and can thus not be coupled to anything, so correlating with what it cannot be coupled with is pseudo-science.
“Your good physical reasons do not seem to be ironclad, either.” – ‘Seem” ? I would like you to give a detailed critique of Jiang et al.’s paper before making such a statement. And, again, there is nothing ‘ironclad’ in science.
“There is no “I think” in science, there is either support or falsification.” – Complete bunk! I have been a scientist for 40 years and know hundreds of scientists personally. Science is a lot less objective than you think [no pun]. Each scientist forms his/hers own view of the evidence and forms a personal opinion which governs what he/she believes or thinks [or whatever equivalent word you want to use – cogitate, perhaps] about the subject. Things are not black and white. Even after, what some would consider falsification, others still cling to their beliefs.
So until you are able to understand and predict with accuracy the behavior of the climate, I suggest you not come down so hard on those that observe correlations and admit to not knowing the underlying mechanism.
“We present evidence to show that changes in the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate are synchronized with changes in its orbital motion about the barycentre of the Solar System” – to my knowledge, no such evidence exists. I have been studying solar rotation for decades and no such variations have been observed. I also recognize that no arguments of any kind can rock the faith of a true believer [in scientific relativism], but it is my nature to try anyway.

kum dollison:
Graham, let’s fact check him. 100 million tonnes would be 3 Billion, 928 Million bushels. That’s bushels of cattle feed. People, poor or otherwise, don’t eat Field Corn. Cattle eat field corn. They are, in turn, eaten by rich Americans, Europeans, and Asians. In fact, we don’t really export corn to Africa. We didn’t when corn was $.04/lb; and, we don’t now that corn is $0.10/lb. That’s the main reasons I can’t see poor Africans harmed.
If, however, we wanted to we could always plant the 34 million acres that we’re currently paying farmers not to plant. Anyhow, when we reach our goal of fifteen billion gallons of ethanol from corn we will be using about 5 billion bushels (out of a crop of about 13 billion bushels. However, we will get back the feeding ability of about 2 Billion bushels in the form of distillers grains, a cattle feed that is superior to corn.
So, here’s the deal. We’ll use about 23% of a crop that we don’t export to Africa, anyway; and, we’ll retain the ability to produce much more than that if the market desires, just by planting the land that we’re currently paying farmers NOT to plant. I could say a lot more, but it’s getting late and I’ll spare you, other than to say I have a hard time trusting someone’s opinion on a subject I know little about when they pontificate authoritatively (and incorrectly) on something I do know a little about.

Leif Svalgaard:
So until you are able to understand and predict with accuracy the behavior of the Sun, I suggest you not come down so hard on those that observe correlations and admit to not knowing the underlying mechanism.
So until you are able to understand and predict with accuracy the behavior of the Climate, I suggest you not come down so hard on those that observe correlations and admit to not knowing the underlying mechanism was what was intended. That one cannot do something perfectly does not in itself validate any old other idea. If I postulate that CO2 ’seems’ to be the course of all evils, you would not come down hard on me if I admitted to not knowing the underlying mechanism unless you were able to understand and predict with accuracy the behavior of Climate, right? That is at least how I read your statement.

Glenn: “Cite some predictions, and let’s see them come true. If they don’t, according to scientific methodology, your theory is falsified, or at least on very shaky ground. The NASA guy has made two or three, and they haven’t come to pass yet.”
Here is a citation of my prediction:
GEOPHYSICAL RESEARCH LETTERS, VOL. 32, L01104, doi:10.1029/2004GL021664, 2005. Sunspot cycle 24: Smallest cycle in 100 years? Abstract: Predicting the peak amplitude of the sunspot cycle is a key goal of solar-terrestrial physics. The precursor method currently favored for such predictions is based on the dynamo model in which large-scale polar fields on the decline of the 11-year solar cycle are converted to toroidal (sunspot) fields during the subsequent cycle. The strength of the polar fields during the decay of one cycle is assumed to be an indicator of peak sunspot activity for the following cycle. Polar fields reach their peak amplitude several years after sunspot maximum; the time of peak strength is signaled by the onset of a strong annual modulation of polar fields due to the 7.25 degree tilt of the solar equator to the ecliptic plane. Using direct polar field measurements, now available for four solar cycles, we predict that the approaching solar cycle 24 (2011 maximum – we are probably off by a year here) will have a peak smoothed monthly sunspot number of 75 ± 8, making it potentially the smallest cycle in the last 100 years.
So far, that prediction looks pretty good, in contrast to that of the NASA ‘guys’ you mentioned. We shall see shortly, if I know what I’m talking about.

Richard Patton:
Mark Nodine: “However, in thinking further about the problem, it seems to me that the situation may well be analogous to making statements about an ensemble average using thermodynamics without having to solve the wave equations for every particle that makes up the system. In other words, it may be possible/reasonable to predict macroscopic trends without being able to model all the microscopic details.”
I think this depends on whether climate is chaotic just like weather. Mandelbrot seems to have shown this: http://www.climateaudit.org/?p=396
I think the fact that many aspects of climate tend to display LTP / scale-free behavior is also indicative of it being fundamentally chaotic and thus not predictable.

Leif Svalgaard:
You can read the prediction paper at: http://www.leif.org/research/Cycle%2024%20Smallest%20100%20years.pdf

Leif, I know you are at odds with Tilmari at http://solarcycle24.com/ global warming exchanges, but is it quite out of the question that magnetic/electrical influences from the giant planets rather than gravitational are the cause of coincidences with Jovian cycles and climate variations/cycles that he records over millenniums?

Tim Lindt:
Leif Svalgaard: “Assume that all cycles have the same length, say 11 years. Assume that maximum comes about halfway through the cycle, after 5 years. A large cycle with 200 ’spots’ at maximum will then have an average growth rate of 200/5 = 40 spots/year [coming out with a bang]. A small cycle with 50 spots at maximum will have a growth rate of 50/5 = 10 spots/year [coming out with a whimper]. Detailed dynamo models can do better, they predict that stronger cycles are shorter, and that their maximum comes earlier than halfway. This just makes the growth rate even faster [more BANG].”
In addition to this argument, observations also show that big cycles start with a BANG, so we may have some confidence that there is something to it. Well if we have but 10 years to a cycle and 5 are turned “on” – assuming 100 to 200 spots…  this is a bang… if we have 5 spots for the 5 years “on” this is a whimper… you don’t have to graft it or be a PHD to get that.
Hey the sun is a burning device built to power up this earth and works like one that goes into low off times by flickering out like a candle at the end of the wick/wax, then starts back up like a cold engine detuned.
It’s there in the sun spot numbers from 1749 till now. I couldn’t believe my eyes as I looked at the minima (Dalton). One predictor that is not talked about here is the holy bible. It says ”They will flee the cold north”. Well maybe it is here and now, that this will come to pass. Jetzt und hier!!!!!
Leif keep up the good work and keep an open mind too. passing the word … warn thy people!

Mike Borgelt:
Mark Nodine: “However, in thinking further about the problem, it seems to me that the situation may well be analogous to making statements about an ensemble average using thermodynamics without having to solve the wave equations for every particle that makes up the system. In other words, it may be possible/reasonable to predict macroscopic trends without being able to model all the microscopic details.”
The kicker is “may”. I’d like some mathematical proof that even though the GCMs produce things that look like real weather patterns, that the averages of these are in fact representative of future climate and will correspond with the real climate.
At first glance this seems reasonable but is it really? I suspect this should be amenable to a mathematical proof but I’ve not seen any discussion on this. Is this assumption just lightly made because it sounds so reasonable?
This also raises the possibility that it may be possible to model the macroscopic trends without going in to the microscopic details(GCMs) which perhaps may be more fruitful, along the lines of the thermodynamics example.
One other point: AFAIK the GCMs do model hurricanes, typhoons and tropical cyclones. I once heard Manabe give a seminar on GCMs in 1971during my meteorology course and he said his model was giving trouble in that it generated too many hurricanes and not enough typhoons. When asked about this (we all were puzzled by this as they are the same weather phenomena) he clarified by saying that they were occurring at the wrong frequencies in different places.

Dr. M.A. Rose:
Anthony, an excellent paper/presentation on the whole concept of greenhouse gas effects, strong on logic, common sense. Why not send it to the major media outlets and see if any of them pick it up. Test how much control the climate warming lobby exerts.

Can someone tell me why a small force (like CO2) can have a large effect in climate science, while the rest of the universe has to obey the laws of thermodynamic, ie 1st law: energy cannot be created or destroyed, aka every action has an equal and opposite reaction. therefor a small force like CO2 cannot create a large effect.
2nd law: entropy must always increase, ie law of diminishing returns. for instance climate scientists think that the system is dominated by positive feedbacks. This is the same as saying I made a perpetual motion device, it cannot exist.
Le Chatelier’s principle: a system at equilibrium will resist any forcing, aka any system at equilibrium must produce negative feedback.
Positive feedback can only occur when something snaps back to equilibrium after the system resisted a force. for instance the energy that produces a nuclear explosion (the classic positive feedback) was stored as a form of negative feedback during a supernova.

Ranting Stan:
I’m always a little reticent to post on here as I am not a scientist and a little slow on the uptake generally, but one of the things I often see quoted is that correlation does not imply causation. Can anyone tell me if it works the other way around – i.e. does non-correlation prove non-causation?
I’m sure the answer will be “not necessarily” but I thought I’d ask anyway.
Also, given that man’s contribution to CO2 levels is relatively small compared to the natural and has varied considerably over time – from none at all to around 3% now (possibly more during the period 1940-1970?) could someone explain why it is that whenever I see a plot of temperature against CO2 it is always the temperature anomaly against total CO2? Should it not be temperature anomaly against CO2 anomaly? Would it not make sense to strip out the naturally occuring element before we plot temperature rise against CO2 rise? I’d be interested to see how such a graph pans out given that man’s CO2 emissions rose fastest during a period when temperature fell (1940-1970), but temperature appears to rise fastest at a time when the increase in mans emissions slowed.
Or maybe we should strip out mans contribution to CO2 and see how temperature increase pans out against naturally occuring CO2 levels?

Simon Turnbull:
I never could believe that a mouse’s f*rt in the middle of a ten acre field would ruin the crop. (A first class article in an excellent website!)

That bloke who reckons he’s going to kayak to the North Pole (hee, hee). His blog is removing ALL comments that are not supportive. Steven Goddard, yours has gone, and so have all three of mine. Just posted one now asking this question – invite others to do the same.

Leif Svalgaard:
Julian: “but is it quite out of the question that magnetic/electrical influences from the giant planets rather than gravitational are the cause of coincidences with Jovian cycles and climate variations/cycles that he records over millenniums?”
In a conducting plasma magnetic/electrical changes propagate with the Alfven speed, somewhat analogous to the sound speed in air. The solar wind is ’supersonic’ in the sense that it moves away from the sun 11 times faster than the Alfven speed, i.e. 11 times faster than magnetic/electrical changes can propagate towards to sun. It is like swimming upstream at 1 mph in a river flowing downstream at 11 mph: you’ll never get upstream.

Tim Lindt:
If we have but 10 years to a cycle and 5 are turned “on”, assuming 100 to 200 spots… this is a bang… if we have 5 spots for the 5 years “on” this is a whimper… you don’t have to graph it or be a PHD to get that.
Apparently Glenn doesn’t get it, as he claims I have not made my case and explained this so he can understand it. One predictor that is not talked about here is the holy bible. Matthew 7:7 says it well.

Maybe the BBC is softening its attitude too! http://www.bbc.co.uk/climate/evidence/sceptics.shtml

Stephen Wilde:
The basic mechanism described by Mr Duffy was previously set out in my article: http://co2sceptics.com/news.php?id=1041 which has appeared worldwide and has had over 10,000 readings on the Co2sceptics site alone. Various sentences are virtually identical save for a few cosmetic changes and his title: “Climate Change – The Real Causes” appears to be just a rewording of my title: “Global Warming and Cooling – The Reality”.
Whilst I am happy that anyone might wish to use my material I do think there should be proper attribution.

I just heard on the radio news that they are now trying to say that smog contributes to global warming and has been largely overlooked as a forcing.
Oi! — John M Reynolds

Dee Norris:
What kum dollison is not saying is that as the price for corn goes up, farmers are switching crops to the more profitable corn feed stocks for the biofuels. Then the supply of these other grains and cereals goes down, so the price goes up.
Furthermore I disagree with his calculation as he does not account for the fuel needed to harvest the feed stock for biofuel, further increasing the total amount of feed stock needed be grown to break even nor is he allowing for crop rotation and other good farming practices.
I did an analysis of several of the alternative fuels as part of a local effort to stop the construction of industrial wind-turbines here in the Catskills and will try to dig up the article I wrote for the local paper. Note: I apologize if I got your gender incorrect.

I guess it’s just me, but this article just sounds like a regurgitation of everything us AGW skeptics have been saying – he’s not adding anything new, not even a new perspective (at least from my super skimming of it).
The important thing is that he’s saying it. Nobody pays attention to us. Him, they might. Just because correlation does not prove causation is not evidence that correlation is never indicative of something deeper.

Ric Werme:
Neil Fisher: “Hi Leif, you said: “We have been over this before, but the barycenter and planetary tides mechanisms do not operate on the Sun.”
I wouldn’t doubt you on anything solar related, but this seems disingeneous to me in face of SIM correlations and (correct) predictions WRT sunspot numbers, ENSO events etc. I watched these unfold and they are spookily accurate to date. I guess that it could be a coincidence, but it sure seems to me that such analyses have predictive power. We shall no doubt have to wait and see, but I am curious to know what it would take for you (and others) to accept that there may be something to this after all. To date, I see 10 years of climate predictions and 4 ENSO events correctly predicted, which is pretty impressive (especially the ENSO events – years in advance is significantly better than any other system). Of course, they can be said to be somewhat vague, but what climate/weather prediction is not?”
My problem with BTSs include:
1) We’ve beaten this to death once before. It’s a mass of fetid flesh.
2) Objects orbit others based on gravitational attraction (and various relativistic complications). That’s dependent on mass and distance.
3) Well layered spherical masses can be modeled as points.
4) Objects distorted by tides cannot be modeled as points. This is used to good effect in near polar Earth orbits.
5) Barycenters do not have mass.
6) I’m rather fond of the statistical links between sunspot cycles and Jupiter, even though articles like http://personal.inet.fi/tiede/tilmari/sunspots.html have to abuse the data to come up with the links.
Barycenters are just a mathematical convenience and are probably quite useful if you are dealing with point-like objects and keep in mind that a barycenter is not a physical object. They are not necessary for any orbital calculations and I’m sure they fall apart when used with anything that looks like a tide.
Still, if barycentric hypotheses can be used successfully for predictions, they’re useful. Instead of arguing here with WordPress’s abysmal search technology, your time would be better spent coming up with a prediction for the next 20-100 years and putting it on a web page for all to see. I’d be glad to add it to http://wermenh.com/climate/ . While orbital dynamics are chaotic in all but a few trivial systems, the Solar System can be predicted with great accuracy for the several thousands or millions of years, so 20-100 is easy. Then we could get back to sitting back and enjoying watching the show.

Stephen Wilde:
Some evidence to support my earlier posts, then I’ll give it a rest:
Global Warming and Cooling- The Reality (Wilde)
Climate Change-The Real Causes (Duffy)
The presence of the sun must be a much bigger influence on global temperatures than the greenhouse characteristics of CO2 on its own. (Wilde)
The sun clearly must be a much bigger influence on global temperatures than any of the greenhouse gases. (Duffy)
The greenhouse effect, as a whole, may smooth out rises and falls in temperature from other causes. (Wilde)
The ‘greenhouse effect’ acts as a mechanism to smooth out fluctuations or rises and falls in temperature. (Duffy)
The greenhouse effect is mainly a phenomenon of the land surface and the atmosphere. (Duffy)
The greenhouse effect is mainly a phenomenon of the land surface and the atmosphere. (Wilde)
The strongest sunlight reaching the Earth is around the Equator that is primarily oceanic. The equatorial sun puts heat into the system year in year out whereas loss of heat is primarily via the poles with each alternating as the main heat loser depending on time of year. (Wilde)
The sun’s energy at the equator is consistent all year round, and in this region the larger proportion of surface area happens to be the ocean water. The dominant heat loss is primarily at the poles with each pole alternating as the main loser of heat. (Duffy)
I believe that ENSO switches from warming to cooling mode depending on whether the sun is having a net warming or net cooling effect on the Earth. Thus the sun directly drives the ENSO cycle and the ENSO cycle directly drives global temperature changes. Indeed, the effect appears to be much more rapid than anyone has previously believed. (Wilde)
The sun directly drives the El Nino–El Nina current motions that drive temperature changes world-wide. (Duffy)
The El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO cycle) turns from warming to cooling depending on the net warming or cooling effect of the sun. This occurs quite rapidly. (Duffy)
there are similar periodic oscillations in other oceans such as the Atlantic and the Arctic (Wilde)
Also there are similar periodic oscillations in other oceans (Atlantic and the Arctic oceans). (Duffy)
When we compare that with land masses, a lower proportion of heat is reflected from watery zones to participate in the greenhouse effect. (Duffy)
more of the incoming heat is absorbed by water as compared to land and a lower proportion is reflected to participate in the greenhouse effect. (Wilde)
The heat from the sun varies over a number of solar cycles which can last from about 9.5 years to about 13.6 years (the main one is the cycle of 11 years). The earth also has an irregular orbit around the sun. These and other effects like the gravitational effects of the planets of the solar system, combine to affect the sun’s magnetic field. Solar fares and sunspots affect the amount of heat generated from the sun. (Duffy)
The heat from the sun varies over a number of interlinked and overlapping cycles but the main one is the cycle of 11 years or so. That solar cycle can last from about 9.5 years to about 13.6 years and appears to be linked to the gravitational effects of the planets of the solar system combining to affect the sun’s magnetic field which seems then to influence the amount of heat generated and incidentally affects the number of sunspots. (Wilde)

Erl Happ:
Professor Duffy has logically and methodically covered the big picture. The notion that CO2 content of the atmosphere might be responsible for the pattern of temperature decrease and then equally strong increase that has been seen at high latitudes in both hemispheres, in winter, since 1948, does not add up. There has been little change in temperature at mid latitudes and a slight increase in the tropics in summer. He points to the importance of warming and cooling events and the tropical ocean in these words:
Let us recognize common sense when we see it. Lets look at the data for the different latitudes and hemispheres and be a little analytical. ‘Global temperature’ is a big distraction. Polewards of 40° latitude radiation exceeds insolation. Between 40°N and 40°S energy gain from the sun exceeds that radiated. Energy is picked up by the tropical ocean and moved to high latitudes. If there is a gain in th energy absorbed in the tropical ocean it shows up as an increase in temperature at high latitudes.
Here is the model that explains the variation. Imagine yourself standing out in a blizzard with an electric blanket wrapped around your middle and you will get the general idea. What we have to do is to explain the fluctuation in energy supply to the part of the body inside the blanket. A moments reflection will reveal that the answer must have something to do with changing cloud cover, i.e. albedo.
The link between the sun and changing albedo in the tropics must be explained if we are to rid ourselves of this monkey on the back. Outgoing long wave radiation varies directly with the Southern Oscillation index. El Nino events involve a fall in OLR as the tropical oceans absorb energy while La Nina events involve a loss of stored energy and a fall in sea surface temperature. These warming and cooling events are experienced right across the tropics. The Pacific happens to be the most dramatic manifestation because it is a very large ocean and the effect of the near conjunction of Tierra Del Fuego and the Antarctic Peninsula.
Let’s focus on the big picture and not get distracted in argument about peripheral details, The barycentre notion is one of these.
La Nina’s commonly occur at sunspot maximum. This overwhelms any effect from changing irradiance. Irradiance changes very little over long periods of time. the two aspects of solar activity that change strongly over time are ultraviolet radiation and the solar wind.
The answer lies not in knowing more about the sun. It lies in knowing a lot more about how the atmosphere reacts to variations in solar output.

Here’s the Duffy quote that did not appear on cue: “The El Nino Southern Oscillation (ENSO cycle) turns from warming to cooling depending on the net warming or cooling effect of the sun.The dominant heat loss is primarily at the poles with each pole alternating as the main loser of heat. As a result there are severe cyclical variations in temperature with the seas and ice caps having the dominant effects in energy changes and hence temperature effects.”

kum dollison:
Dee, any corn farmer will tell you that total fuel used for planting, cultivation, harvesting, etc. is less than 8 gal/acre. In as much as, an acre, after accounting for distillers grains, yields about 700 gallons of ethanol the ” energy needed to grow” argument loses a lot of steam.
And, again, we only row-crop 250 million acres (out of 1.2 billion arable acres. – We used to rowcrop 400 million acres in the U.S.) That means we have 150 million acres formerly row-cropped land lying fallow, or used for light grazing.
Dee, 70% of the most poverty-stricken in the world are subsistence farmers. These are the people that have suffered the most from the subsidized crops grown in the U.S. and Europe. Five Dollar Corn, if their governments will allow them to sell it, and export it, might cure more malnourishment in the 3rd world than all the “poverty programs, combined.
Bottom line: Field Corn has gone up a nickel/lb. and there is, according to a recent stufy from Stanford University, between 1.0, and 1.2 Billion Acres of Abandoned Farmland in the World.
Dee, there are Tremendous amounts of money involved in outcome of this. It is really not all that hard to get articles published, even in the “prestigious” journals if the money is right. One needs to be Very careful in choosing the “heroes” in this particular case.

Leif Svalgaard:
At http://arxiv.org/abs/0806.2833 Schüssler explains why the correlation between growth rate and solar cycle size works: A robust correlation between growth rate and amplitude of solar cycles: consequences for prediction methods  Authors: Schüssler, R. Cameron M.  Publication Date: 06/2008, ApJ accepted Abstract
We consider the statistical relationship between the growth rate of activity in the early phase of a solar cycle with its subsequent amplitude on the basis of four datasets of global activity indices (Wolf sunspot number, group sunspot number, sunspot area, and 10.7-cm radio flux). In all cases, a significant correlation is found: stronger cycles tend to rise faster. Owing to the overlapping of sunspot cycles, this correlation leads to an amplitude-dependent shift of the solar minimum epoch. We show that this effect explains the correlations underlying various so-called precursor methods for the prediction of solar cycle amplitudes and also affects the prediction tool of Dikpati et al. (2006) based upon a dynamo model. Inferences as to the nature of the solar dynamo mechanism resulting from predictive schemes which (directly or indirectly) use the timing of solar minima should therefore be treated with caution.

Dee Norris:
@Kum – I didn’t disagree with your conclusions regarding Africa. I don’t disagree with your statements on abandoned farm land.
The fuel usage per acre which you quote is for pure petro-diesel, not bio-diesel blend. Forget trying to harvest corn using ethanol. I hear the farmers at the local Mom’s Diner grumble about fuel per acre all the time and I buy a great deal of hay for my own horse.
Crop derived bio-fuels would not be cost competitive without the massive government subsidies. There may be better solutions in the pipe, but it always comes down to energy out < energy in. In a cooling world, the energy needed to grow the feeder stocks will get higher (or more likely the return will get lower and lower).
The technology exists to feed the world, provide clean water, what is missing is the funding. Another reason NOT to support AGW is the money spent on trying to prevent it is basically thrown away when it can be used to for better, nobler purposes.

Ranting Stan: “Non-correlation does not prove non-causation.”
You are unlikely to observe linear correlation between weight and radius of ballbearings but you’ll see it if you test with radius cubed. But radius and weight are certainly related. More subtle relationships will be less easily revealed.
If naturally occurring CO2 can be assumed constant its presence or absence will not affect an estimate of correlation. The appearances of plots are just that, presentational matters.

Gary Gulrud:
“The answer lies not in knowing more about the sun. It lies in knowing a lot more about how the atmosphere reacts to variations in solar output.” Money quote.

Leif Svalgaard:
Gary Gulrud: “The answer lies not in knowing more about the sun. It lies in knowing a lot more about how the atmosphere reacts to variations in solar output.” Money quote.
Except that two factors play a role:
1) the reaction [if any] is at or below the noise-level and is therefore not of practical significance
2) the Sun varies less than thought only a few years ago
So, the answer lies not in knowing more about the sun or of how little the atmosphere reacts to variations in solar output, but in understanding the internal oscillations of the system and the interplay between atmosphere, ocean, lithosphere, and biosphere [including man]. Using ’solar influence’ as a dumping ground for what we can’t ascribe yet to something else [as has been done ever since Giovanni Battista Riccioli first did this is 1651] has not proven very fruitful.

Here is some information about the ‘global cooling crisis’ in the mid 1600s: http://www.history.ox.ac.uk/currentunder/honours/history/general/9resources/parker_2.pdf
and the search for causes: In search of causes: Opinions of Hermann of Hesse (stars), Increase Mather (comets), Raymundo Magisa (volcanoes), Giovanni Battista Riccioli (sunspots)  Observations of Christopher Scheiner (1626) and Johannes Hevelius (1642-4) and the ‘Sunspot Minimum’ (1643-1715). The fatal cycle: volcanoes plus sunspot minimum -> solar cooling -> more ‘El Niño’ events (1640, 1641, 1647, 1650) -> more volcanic eruptions.
We have not progressed a lot in the intervening 350 years…

Gary Gulrud:
“Five Dollar Corn, if their governments will allow them to sell it, and export it, might cure more malnourishment in the 3rd world than all the “poverty programs, combined.” Last year’s $5 dollar corn is a significant cost for a family living on $1 per day. They have to have something to sell in return at comparative advantage. This year corn planted was down 6% because more acreage went into wheat and soy (acreage available for more rice is limited) as their prices have skyrocketed with worldwide shortages (rice as well). These, along with rice are superior foodstuffs in terms of calories, nutrients and variety of preparations. This year corn is already over $7 and should soon turn higher as cool weather lowers yields on the remaining fields not destroyed by flooding.
Meanwhile, here in the cornbelt, gas extended with ethanol remains 10% more expensive per mile than petrol at the pump. Just this year two ethanol plants preparing to go online suspended operation in ND. They would have lost money and their investors saw no end to that prospect. Ethanol is crashing due to market forces and government can only exacerbate the trend.

Bob Tisdale:
Ranting Stan: “I always enjoyed looking at the long-term graph of the monthly change in CO2. It clearly resembles the NINO3.4 anomaly curve (and most other variables impacted by ENSO) in its rises and falls.”
There are lots of studies that discuss the link between ENSO and CO2. Just so happens I’m finishing up a post on it. I’ll throw up a link when I’m done. Might not be till this evening.

kum dollison:
Dee, the difference between petro-diesel, and bio-diesel is somewhere between 0%, and 10% fuel efficiency, depending on the engine, and circumstances. In other words, as regards EROEI of biofuels, it’s insignificant. And, yes, ethanol-powered farm equipment would work just fine. An ethanol-optimized tractor will give comparable (if not better) performance to a diesel tractor.
As for profitability, even at today’s corn prices the ethanol refineries are making a profit selling ethanol at $2.20/gal. The price of Wholesale Unleaded, today, is $2.70. BTW, it looks like Bluefire, and the other “Municipal Waste to Ethanol” technologies will come in at less than $1.50/gal.
Also, you might ask yourself this question. “What would the price of gasoline be if we weren’t using over 600,000 Barrels/Day of Ethanol. At least one major Wall Street Firm thinks you would be looking at an Extra $.50/gal. What would that add to the cost of a box of cornflakes?

Bill Marsh:
Leif, I agree with your comments about the planetary gravitic effects. Don’t those gravitic tides affect earths orbit though, adding some more eccentricity to the orbit and thus affecting solar irradiance?

Stephen Wilde:
Professor Duffy has expressed regret at his inadvertent failure to attribute so I’ve agreed that his article is unobjectionable on the basis that he acknowledges my input.

kum dollison:
Gary, I’m not going to use up any more of Anthony’s bandwidth arguing biofuels. I did want to point out that the part of the author’s article that dealt with something I was familiar with was very suspect.
As for your comment; you’re entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts. Corn, today, is about $5.25 bu at the elevator: http://ncga.ncgapremium.com/index.aspx?mid=28566
As for “mileage,” it’s very complex. Most cars will get Better mileage on a twenty, or thirty percent blend of Ethanol than on a ten percent blend. Having said that, the “average” car will give up about 1.5% mileage on e10 vs gasoline, but straight gasoline will cost about 3% more. Ethano isn’t “crashing.” We’re using more every day, despite the fact that Big Oil, and the Meat Industry is trying hard to kill it every day.

Mark Nodine:
Ranting Stan: “could someone explain why it is that whenever I see a plot of temperature against CO2 it is always the temperature anomaly against total CO2? Should it not be temperature anomaly against CO2 anomaly?”
An anomaly is simply the value of a series after subtracting out a constant representing some reference period. From a graphical standpoint, it results in shifting the graph up and down, or alternatively, in changing the labels on the y-axis while leaving the shape of the curve the same. So graphing an anomaly against a total is pretty much the same thing from the standpoint of eyeballing the data as using two anomalies or two totals.
In practice, people use the temperature anomaly because it’s readily available and gives some sense of how unusual the current temperatures. The four different temperature series use different reference periods, so their anomalies have different magnitudes even if the actual temperatures are identical.

Mike Bryant:
Bob Tisdale, just wondering if the satellite temperature data could be graphed showing the earth in three separate regions, north, south and central? I have a feeling that such a graph might show something unexpected. Thanks, Mike Bryant

Leif Svalgaard:
Bill Marsh: “I agree with your comments about the planetary gravitic effects. Don’t those gravitic tides affect earths orbit though, adding some more eccentricity to the orbit and thus affecting solar irradiance?”
No, they do not, as it is the barycenter that moves around. Here is a plot [from Alexander’s paper] showing what the distance [and also the TSI] between the sun and the Earth should be according to BTS: http://www.leif.org/research/DavidA10.png and here is what is actually observed [in terms of TSI: the black curve]: http://www.leif.org/research/DavidA11.png with the data points from the previous figure added in [the red dots]. As you can see, the observed TSI does not match the BTS prediction. BTW, you might be able to discern some VERY small wiggles in the black curve [e.g. one near the top in 1993]. Those are the variations caused by solar activity. Note how utterly insignificant [like 50-100 times smaller] they are compared to the regular march of the sine-wave due to the smoothly varying sun-earth distance.

Jack Linard:
I for one have had enough of the the smug, arrogant, condescending and boorish Lief Svalgaard. Lief is always right. Nobody may question his right to be right. Lief knows the sun and the sun knows Lief. Lief adds nothing to any discussion, except to ensure that Lief’s right to be right is respected. Proof, justification, implications, explanations, etc, are nowhere to be found. As an engineer, I find it difficult to tolerate this degree of sanctimonious science.

Can’t we just admit that, as humans, we don’t really know everything about our impact on the environment? Maybe we can just play it safe and drive a little less, in case all the paid-off scientists are wrong (cough.. cough… bogus science reports saying that cigarettes are “healthy” half a century ago)

NOAA released their Sept sunspot graph. They truncated the left side of the red curves slightly, but those prediction high and low lines are unchanged otherwise that I can see. http://www.swpc.noaa.gov/ftpdir/weekly/sunspot.gif – John M Reynolds

Gary Gulrud:
Leif, please, how does the author’s point morph into your own? Because he didn’t provide the itemized list? “So, the answer lies not in knowing more about the sun or of how little the atmosphere reacts to variations in solar output, but in understanding the internal oscillations of the system and the interplay between atmosphere, ocean, lithosphere, and biosphere [including man].” BTW, I am on a Palin binge and can’t get back.

Leif Svalgaard:
jmrSudbury: “NOAA released their Sept sunspot graph. They truncated the left side of the red curves slightly, but those prediction high and low lines are unchanged otherwise that I can see.”
They, of course, need to move the red curves to the right, but since it is an official product, they cannot do that without excessive bureaucratic hassle. so expect the curves to be more and more silly in the future until the Panel makes another prediction [if ever].

Gary Gulrud: “Please, how does the author’s point morph into your own? Because he didn’t provide the itemized list?”
I don’t know what you mean and why it matters. I used his phraseology and added what I consider important. Namely that the Sun is not a player, no matter how badly we want him to be [for many disparate reasons].

Bruce Cobb:
Namely that the Sun is not a player, no matter how badly we want him to be [for many disparate reasons].There you go again, Leif, with your anti-sun ideology. Sorry, not buying it. You sure talk a good game, though.

Jack Simmons:
Here are some correlations I’ve noticed: In the fall, bears go into hibernation. Winter follows. When bears come out of hibernation, winter ends. Therefore, bears hibernating causes winter. First cell phones went into use in 1977. Each cell phone generates heat. Cell phone usage has gone up with global temperatures. Therefore, cell phone usage is the cause of global warming. Isn’t science wonderful? With such a small investment in facts, one can reap a rich reward. And on small things having a big impact: I don’t have to worry about that little train down the track. It is really, really tiny so I can just take my time moving my car off the track…

Leif Svalgaard:
Bruce Cobb: “There you go again, Leif, with your anti-sun ideology. Sorry, not buying it. You sure talk a good game, though.”
It is not fair to call it ideology. It is the result of 40+ years of study of this and of familiarity with hundreds of scientific papers purporting this or that [or no] claim. Now, tell me why you don’t buy it.

Leif Svalgaard:
Jack Simmons: “I don’t have to worry about that little train down the track. It is really, really tiny so I can just take my time moving my car off the track…”
Naaw, just stay put and let the train pass under your car…

Kum, just one little thought about those poor subsistence farmers in Africa who would benefit from $5/bu corn: what do you think subsistence farming means?
These are not people with the infrastructure, technology, water resources or capability of producing exportable crops. As it is, their farming/land-clearing methods are resulting in desertification of the environment. If $5/bu corn would save them, they’d already be selling it to us (though I’m sure their governments would reap the rewards, rather than the actual farmers).
It isn’t global warming or fat Westerners that are causing the poverty that afflicts these people, it is a complex mix of regional conflicts, corrupt governments, and the chaos left over from Imperialism.
If the Africans want to sell me some nice thick, juicy wildebeest steaks, I’ll be happy to lift them out of poverty.

What a wonderful site! There is intelligent life out there after all. Thank you.

kum dollison:
Tamara, I will agree that those African farmers have many problems, starting with terrible governance in many cases. I was just trying to make the point that whether we feed corn to cattle and sell the beef to rich Koreans, or whether we extract some of the starch for ethanol before we feed the protein to the cattle, and then sell the beef is not one of them.

Jack Linard:
Oh dear. I had the bad taste to question the beLiefs of those who believe that the sun has no influence on climate. Sorry, Anthony – I was a fan. I’m an AGW skeptic (with qualifications to justify my position).

True, that isn’t the problem. And, it may be that $5/bu corn isn’t really a problem, at least not in the U.S. Corn already has industrial uses other than ethanol, so it’s really just a matter of expanding corn’s utility. But, people (a.k.a. the marketplace) should have the ability to choose, to some extent, how they spend their hard earned money. My choice is to be able to purchase meat and chicken to put on my family’s table. If the two choices are: 1) Eat meat, or 2) the salvation of the planet, I will take the salvation of the planet. Most rational people would. The ethanol debate isn’t about just finding another use for corn. It is about government (and world government) mandated and subsidized use of food stuffs to produce biofuels in a misguided bid to save us from ourselves. I am paying my government to increase the price of the meat on my table in order to save me from a trace gas that may or may not be warming the planet by a degree or so (which is consistent with the post-ice age warming rate). Frankly, that chaps my hide.
Also, you have mentioned that the people in developing countries are not affected by our use of corn for ethanol, because we don’t export corn to them. But what about the foodstuffs that they are using in their own countries to produce biofuels (soybeans, beets, sugarcane, etc.)? Do you also argue that this does not affect food prices in developing countries (serious question. If there is a reason, I’d like to know it.)? Was it just ignorance that has led to rioting? Is it a concern that there are regimes who would deem it much more satisfying to sell ethanol to Western nations rather than feed their own people?

Stephen Wilde:
Leif, I share your view that gravitational influences would have no direct effect on the Earth’s climate systems. However I have seen it suggested that the combined gravitational effects of the planets in the solar system will move the barycentre of the solar system around and that the position of the barycentre in relation to the position of the sun will have an effect on the sun’s inner workings and result in changes in output possibly linked to the observed solar cycles. Would you go along with that ?

Leif Svalgaard:
Stephen Wilde: “the position of the barycentre in relation to the position of the sun will have an effect on the sun’s inner workings and result in changes in output possibly linked to the observed solar cycles. Would you go along with that?”
No, I would not, for reasons that I have stated here several times [the main one being that the sun is following a geodesic in a curved space and feeling no forces]. IMHO, hitching your writings [and Duffy’s by extension] to BTS effects diminishes the paper.

Stephen Wilde:
“Outgoing long wave radiation varies directly with the Southern Oscillation index. El Nino events involve a fall in OLR as the tropical oceans absorb energy while La Nina events involve a loss of stored energy and a fall in sea surface temperature”
Erl, I was puzzled by the above and wonder whether it is the right way round. El Nino releases energy stored in the ocean to the atmosphere so there should be a rise in OLR and a decrease in stored energy (unless the sun is in an active phase and still adding energy faster than it is being released). Vice versa for La Nina which holds energy back from the atmosphere with a fall in OLR and an increase in stored energy (unless the sun is in a quiet phase and unable to add energy faster than it is still being released.
It is quite correct that it is a matter of overall system balance as Leif has said rather than any necessary substantial solar variation but in a highly sensitive ocean regulated system very small solar changes could indeed have a significant effect over enough time. Each phase of the PDO is 30 years so 60 years or nearly six solar cycles for a full PDO cycle which could throw up sizeable variability from small slow solar changes.
Remember too that there are a lot of square metres on Earth’s surface so even a change in irradiance of one unit or less per square metre will multiply up to a sizeable amount of energy.

“The position of the barycentre in relation to the position of the sun will have an effect on the sun’s inner workings and result in changes in output possibly linked to the observed solar cycles.”

Would you go along with that ?

Leif Svalgaard:
No, I would not, for reasons that I have stated here several times [the main one being that the sun is following a geodesic in a curved space and feeling no forces]. IMHO, hitching your writings [and Duffy’s by extension] to BTS effects diminishes the paper.”
My wording differs from Duffy’s to the extent that my article does not rely on any particular cause for the solar cycles. All my article requires is that there are solar cycles and historically there have been observed real world correlations over several centuries.
My curiosity on the point arises from this item which seems able to make reasonable predictions on the basis of planetary influences on solar behaviour. I dont pretend to know the definitive position myself. http://personal.inet.fi/tiede/tilmari/sunspots.html#intro

If two patterns are in harmony then there is a very high likelihood of a physical connection, since without a connection the two waves will move out of phase. So if A and B are in harmony then either A causes B or B cause A or C cause A & B. If a pattern on the sun is in harmony with a pattern on the earth then there must be a physical connection.
By the way, is there any comments on why a small CO2 forcing can have a large effect in clear violation of the first and second laws of thermodynamics? Or why a system driven by positive feedbacks (as climate is often described) is actually a description of a perpetual motion device, clearly impossible. Cheers

Bob Tisdale:
Mike Bryant, sorry, but I don’t have time today to create graphs that I won’t be using at my blog. But here’s a link to the RSS MSU data broken down by latitude: http://www.remss.com/pub/msu/monthly_time_series/RSS_Monthly_MSU_AMSU_Channel_TLT_Anomalies_Land_and_Ocean_v03_1.txt
And here’s a link to the UAH MSU data that’s also broken down by latitude: http://vortex.nsstc.uah.edu/data/msu/t2lt/uahncdc.lt
I’m surprised you haven’t been able to find the comparison graphs by doing a google image search. They should be out there. I know I’ve seen them.

Leif Svalgaard:
Stephen Wilde: “My curiosity on the point arises from this item which seems able to make reasonable predictions on the basis of planetary influences on solar behaviour. I dont pretend to know the definitive position myself. http://personal.inet.fi/tiede/tilmari/sunspots.html#intro
I do not see a table with “post-dictions’ of past cycles and their errors or skill score [maybe I just missed it in the mass of numbers] and the only real prediction I can find is for cycle 24 to be 30-60 with maximum in 2014. As I have said before, there are other theories [e.g Cliverd et al. based on different ‘cyclomania’:
Predicting Solar Cycle 24 and beyond  Authors: Clilverd, Mark A.; Clarke, Ellen; Ulich, Thomas; Rishbeth, Henry; Jarvis, Martin J.  (British Antarctic Survey, Natural Environment Research Council, Cambridge, UK); Publication: Space Weather, Volume 4, Issue 9, CiteID S09005  Publication Date: 09/2006  Origin: DOI: 10.1029/2005SW000207 Abstract
We use a model for sunspot number using low-frequency solar oscillations, with periods 22, 53, 88, 106, 213, and 420 years modulating the 11-year Schwabe cycle, to predict the peak sunspot number of cycle 24 and for future cycles, including the period around 2100 A.D. We extend the earlier work of Damon and Jirikowic (1992) by adding a further long-period component of 420 years.
Typically, the standard deviation between the model and the peak sunspot number in each solar cycle from 1750 to 1970 is +/-34. The peak sunspot prediction for cycles 21, 22, and 23 agree with the observed sunspot activity levels within the error estimate. Our peak sunspot prediction for cycle 24 is significantly smaller than cycle 23, with peak sunspot numbers predicted to be 42 +/- 34. […] or a maximum in the [wide] range 8-76.] that predict similar numbers, therefore a ‘hit’ cannot be taken as unique support for any of these.
At any rate, I missed the skill score statistics that shows that this method works. All ‘prediction’ methods claim a high success rate, otherwise they would not have been brought forward, but clearly they cannot all be correct, so a mere claim that it works cannot be taken as evidence that ‘this is it!’.

Leif Svalgaard:
RobJM: “If two patterns are in harmony then there is a very high likely hood of a physical connection, since without a connection the two waves will move out of phase. So if A and B are in harmony then either A causes B or B cause A or C cause A & B. If a pattern on the sun is in harmony with a pattern on the earth then there must be a physical connection.”
Absolutely. This was the [correct] argument a hundred years ago for a connection between sunspots and geomagnetic storms. But show me the pattern in the climate that is in harmony with a pattern in the Sun.
Now, there is a little twist. There are LOTS of such patterns and LOTS of people that claim them. The problem is that these people do not agree as to what and when. If they all did [as they now agree on the harmony patterns of sunspots and magnetic storms – there is no debate any more] then we would not have this discussion.
So, you will have to show why your patterns are superior to anybody else’s patterns.

John F. Pittman:
Leif, I am sure that you have explained this before. Although in general, I agree with your statement >> BTW, you might be able to discern some VERY small wiggles in the black curve [e.g. one near the top in 1993]. Those are the variations caused by solar activity. Note how utterly insignificant [like 50-100 times smaller] they are compared to the regular march of the sine-wave due to the smoothly varying sun-earth distance.<< However, the other problem is that I thought that TSI was greater in the time when the southern hemisphere is tilted towards the sun, as indiacted by your graph where December is greater than June.
In that CO2 is well mixed, then shouldn’t global warming in the southern hemisphere be greater than northern hemisphere? The IPCC indicate such a small portion of the W/m^2 proves manmade global warming. That difference, in your graph, is so small, and yet, it is the actual and proven cause of recent global warming per IPCC. After all, the GCM’s which also prove global warming, in description, have a thermal barrier at the tropics. However, CO2, being nearly an ideal gas, is dispersed through atmosphere relatively evenly; except; it is noted, and accepted, that it is somewhat less concentrated in the polar regions, due to the known temperature relationship for water and gas phases.
Could you provide the same insights to this difference of TSI in the cycle you graphed, and the IPCC claims for southern versus northern hemispheres? I mean, after all if the sine wave is smoothly varying and the southerm hemisphere receives such an appreciable amount more than the northern, what explanation will explain the difference that the southern is cooler than the northern? I would say that it is the difference between the amount of land versus ocean in the respective hemispheres. However, with evaporation, the thermal capacity of water is much greater than soils, due to the fact that the triple point of water is 0C at standard temperature and pressure. I wonder how one can use W/m^2 as a standard in a system where the main GHG is water which has a 1:273 ratio for comparing actual heat of water (ocean) versus water vapor (GHG). Yet one of the admitted weaknesses, therefore one of the weaknesses of the proof, is that GCM’s either do not do water cycles ( a single lumped parameter) or cannot model water cycles if they try.
Further, these same models are promoted as being able to do regions, less that their grid size, and determine whether it will be drought or flodd up to 100 years in the future. With what you have posted on TSI, what would it take to accept/prove the claims stated above? If the claim is that the southern hemisphere has more water, and yet shows less temperature increase than the northern hemisphere, is this not proof, at least indirect proof, that water is actually a negative feedback, rather than a positive one?
Further, one the principle reactions is that mass that heats, expands; and for air systems, this means that the tendency on the atomic and molecular level is to rise, taking heat and mass upwards where it can release the energy in our system. This is a conservative approach. Also, in that air under conditions of boundary, the most energetic atoms/molecules, on a empirical basis, are the ones that tend to rise upward (outward in a compressed cylinder), which means that the atoms/molecules that exit are in a state of higher energy than those remaining in that state. That temperature, all things being equal as the IPCC have claimed, is a good measurement of heat/energy in the earth system means this approach is an even more conservative approach..this is based on how the IPCC justify their computation and recognition of climate sensitivity.
Yet, this claim by the IPCC appears to fail a most cursory examination. Could you provide some insight with respect to TSI?

kum dollison:
Tamara, the other Major Ethanol-producing country is Brazil. They make ethanol from sugar cane grown in the southern/central parts of the country. The Cerrano where they grow soybeans has, according to their government, 150 Million Acres of fertile land lying fallow. Their government has stated that they could replace every drop of gasoline in the U.S. and never cut down a tree, or fail to feed a single Brazilian.
Stanford Univ. states that their are 1.2 Billion Acres of Abandoned Farmland in the World.
With all the noise of Gas Prices going up, and Down, and Speculation, etc. etc. keep one thing in mind. Many really smart oil analysts think that around 2011 the world is going to start running very short on Oil. Even now, Exports from Mexico, Venezuela, Canada, Norway, Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Nigeria, among others, are Declining. Add to that the fact that production from our own North Slope, and Gulf of Mexico is Declining, and that the U.K., China, and Indonesia are now Importers rather than exporters, and you might get a glimpse of the problem developing.
In short, Tamara, the main argument for forcing the Energy companies to develop biofuels is not grounded in Climate. If it was, believe me, I’d feel the same as you.

Leif Svalgaard:
John F. Pittman: “Could you provide some insight with respect to TSI?”
Most of your long comment on the difference between the Northern/southern Hemisphere I do not know any good answers to. My hunch [like yours] is that the different distributions of Land/Sea is crucial. When we try to evaluate the impact of TSI, we must remember that what actually matters is not TSI, but what is left after the albedo has taken its cut. And the albedo over Sea and Land [and the cloud cover] is different. This all is taken into account, or so the modelers tell us, so I guess there should be no mysteries. Perhaps somebody more qualified that I on this, could take it from here…

Bob Tisdale:
Ranting Stan: “Here’s the link to the graph of the month-to-month changes in CO2 that bears a striking resemblance to the NINO3.4 anomaly curve.
And here’s the link to the post that compares it to NINO3.4 and other SST data sets: http://bobtisdale.blogspot.com/2008/09/atmospheric-co2-concentration-versus.html

John F. Pittman:
Though you do not know a good answer, perhaps as I do when looking at phenomena, you could comment on the orders of magnitude as you did for TSI. After all, with a 1:273 lever against and using temperature for climate sensitivity and the very physical reaction of gas to excitement by an energy source (sun or CO2 enhancement), how can one take these account and say there is a positive feedback?
When I showed using a twice conservative approach even ignoring this 1:273 ratio, that the feedback is negative you would reply >> we must remember that what actually matters is not TSI, but what is left after the albedo has taken its cut. And the albedo over Sea and Land [and the cloud cover] is different. This all is taken into account, or so the modelers tell us, so I guess there should be no mysteries<< So I show that it is about 1000 times (273 x 4, if not 273 x 2 x 4 = 2000 times more), 3 orders of magnitude unlikely, very much like your TSI.
You reply with a albedo that has been measured IIRC varying about +/-10% for +/- 3 SD for all changes from frigid to much warmer than present. However, using your graph where it is 110 units of 1365 (average) which is a 8% and we compare 10% x .3 (land/ocean ratio) we get 3% with a relative linear trend since the IPCC used delta Temperature to compute sensitivity, and an 8% that has land and water. But since I like conservative approaches, soil has a typical water content of 30%. Now our value goes to 1% with this linear IPCC delta. But it does not stop there. Soil, and especially soil with water has a good insulating affect of about 2.6. My favorite example of this, is that where I live, dogs dig under bushes into the dirt to cool themselves; you could look up insulating properites od common elements.
Anyway, 1%/2.6 = 0.4%. So now we are about an order of magnitude less for the albedo effect. Note that this effect also is coupled with the 1:273, and transpiration is noted by the IPCC. So the effect of water, regardless of the IPCC assumptions decrease this 0.4% versus 8%. So that it approaches two orders of magnitude, if the change in water vapor is significant. It is, as can be determined from physcometric charts when you compare say desert versus the USA south east. As this approaches 2 orders of magnitude less, does it not approach the difference in TSI that you corrected (or took them to task, as they may believe)??

Leif Svalgaard:
John F. Pittman: “does it not approach the difference in TSI that you corrected (or took them to task, as they may believe)?”
John, I cannot follow you. What is your point? Instead of guessing, I’ll try to describe my point of view [which is what I know].
Currently, there is a large difference [~100 W/m2] between TSI in January [when we are closest to the sun] and July [farthest away]. The climate system adjusts to this recurring disparity in ways that depend on the distribution of Sea and Land. Complex systems don’t adjust instantaneously and perfectly everywhere, although on the average things will balance out quite well. If you add very small perturbations [solar activity] to the signal, the effect of these will be hard to distinguish from the imperfections of the adjustment. That is why we don’t see a big solar cycle effect. Over long periods of time, the Earth’s orbit changes and the annual wave in TSI changes accordingly [the Sea/Land distribution also changes, perhaps on even longer time scales] giving rise to glaciations or other major climate changes because the changes in TSI are much larger than those associated with the solar cycles (~1 W/m2).
The players in the adjustment process are the Land/Sea distribution, oceans currents, salinity changes, volcanoes, and the biosphere [I may have left a few out].
This process has gone on for eons, and will continue for eons. Sometimes these adjustments takes just decades and at all times the system is in continuous flux around its equilibrium.
I mentioned that TSI changes are built in to the climate models, but as far as I know, just as fixed boundary conditions [using a ‘typical’ average TSI]. I don’t know if this makes sense, but I do also don’t know that it does not. One thing I have asked the modelers [e.g. Gavin Smith] to do is to ‘crank up’ the TSI and/or its annual variation and/or the superposed solar variation and in this way run some ’sensitivity’ test runs, but to no avail.
I have in general a low opinion of IPCC because of its political control and [perhaps] goals, but I don’t really have an opinion on the AGW issue, except perhaps that [coming from a cold country] I think warm is better than cold.

Excellent story, thank you.

Erl Happ:
Stephen Wilde: “I was puzzled by the above and wonder whether it is the right way round.”
Thanks for the question. Can I ask you to look at my admittedly unorthodox explanation of the phenomena in post of today on the Svalgaard 8 thread on Climate Audit.
Alternatively look at: http://www.cpc.noaa.gov/products/analysis_monitoring/bulletin_tmp/figt1.shtml
There is nothing internal about the ENSO oscillation. Tropical warming events are generalized and not confined to the Pacific and they involve a fall in outgoing long wave radiation. The energy is absorbed by the ocean where it raises temperatures. It can not be both absorbed and emitted. A warming event is the result of a fall in albedo. Density and spread of cirrus cloud in the tropics varies inversely with 200hPa temperature. Temperature at 10-11km altitude is driven directly by the sun with an amplitude of variation much greater than at the surface. There is appreciable ozone at 200hPa and enough water vapour to form multi branching microscopic ice crystals that have a high reflectivity value. Both ozone and ice will heat with an increase in incoming solar radiation. There is a much greater variation in ultraviolet light than total solar irradiance.
So, cirrus cloud comes and goes with the change in relative humidity at 200hPa. Tropical albedo is about 24% with about a 6% decrease over south east Asia during an El Nino event. Of course, ‘an El Nino event’ is a parcel of variable proportion and so too will be the change in albedo.

John F. Pittman:
I have the essentially same POV, as far as I can tell. However, I do not assume that GCM’s are correct. Rather the opposite. My point above that you did not follow was that the average +50 W/m^2 occurred in the southern hemisphere, with the northern hemisphere at an average of -50 W/m^2 with respect to each other for the 100 W/m^2 difference. A quick estimate from the IPCC is 7.5 W/m^2/degree K for the current temperature difference of the average temperature versus the black body earth which translates to 2.3 K difference between the Northern and Southern hemisphere. I agree with that there are sea land distributions. My point is that: in that models are said by the modellers do a poor job of the water cycle; and from the known physics +50 W/m^2 and a delta T of about .3K (NH average – SH average), when it should be opposite sign and larger; these indicate that assuming the GCM’s are correct is shown to be a bad assumption, based on the TSI data you provided, the known differences of the SH versus the NH, and what the modellers themselves say.

Leif Svalgaard:
John F. Pittman: “I have the essentially same POV, as far as I can tell. However, I do not assume that GCM’s are correct.”
I must be singularly inept in explaining my view. I have made no assumption about GCMs being correct. What I was suggesting was a stringent test of their ability to model the impact of TSI correctly. And I suspect they will fail.
The average +50 W/m^2 occurred in the southern hemisphere, with the northern hemisphere at an average of -50 W/m^2 with respect to each other for the 100 W/m^2 difference. But six months later, it is the other way around, so whatever difference it made would be reversed six months later and symmetry would be restored, no?

John F. Pittman:
No, you were not inept. I misunderstood.
Yes, it will. But that is the time when albedo changes should be greatest. I agree about the restoration by the cycle. Thanks for helping clarify my thinking.

Stephen Wilde:
Erl, Thanks for your reply. There seems to be an important issue here regarding the ENSO mechanism which may impact on my ideas. Would you agree to an exchange of private emails so that I can decide whether what you say should affect my pronouncements?
I can be contacted on wilde.co@btconnect.com – Stephen

Leif, I will avoid the B word but wouldn’t the sun’s motion on its geodesic distort the magnetic field far from the sun versus the field near the geodesic? TIA  P.S. I learned geodesic from an another poster but can’t spell his name yet.

Leif Svalgaard:
statePoet1775: “wouldn’t the sun’s motion on its geodesic distort the magnetic field far from the sun versus the field near the geodesic?”
The geodesic has to do with gravity not magnetic fields, so the answer is “no”, and distorting a magnetic field far from the sun does not seem to be an efficient way of making spots on the sun…

Leif, Thanks. I guess I should ask a neutron star expert about how a magnetic field behaves in differently warped space.

More on Ian WIlson’s article from ABC, for those who haven’t read the full article: “For many years scientists have recognised an apparent connection between the strength of sunspot activity and the movement of the sun in relation to solar system’s barycentre, which is driven by the combined gravitational forces of Jupiter and Saturn. But no one has been able to explain the connection.
“There are really only two possible interactions, and neither of them is feasible,” Wilson says.
Read more at http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2008/07/02/2292281.htm?site=science&topic=energy

Leif Svalgaard:
statePoet1775: I guess I should ask a neutron star expert about how a magnetic field behaves in differently warped space.
Whatever her answer, it would hardly have application to the weak gravitational fields found in the solar system which is the case I was referring to.

Glenn: from the blurb: “They say that when the sun’s orbital motion changes, so too does its equatorial rotation rate, which provides strong circumstantial evidence that there is a spin-orbit coupling mechanism operating between Jupiter and Saturn and the sun.”
Except that no variation of the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate has ever been clearly demonstrated. I would be glad to comment on any claim to the contrary if provided with a link.

Ric Werme: Leif Svalgaard: Glenn: from the blurb: “They say that when the sun’s orbital motion changes, so too does its equatorial rotation rate, which provides strong circumstantial evidence that there is a spin-orbit coupling mechanism operating between Jupiter and Saturn and the sun.”
How can the equatorial rotation rate change? For that to happen, you need a torque, and in a gravitational system, the best way to do that is with a difference in the gravitational attraction between the “left” and “right” sides. As far as I know, stars aren’t lumpy enough for that.

Leif Svalgaard: … whatever her answer, it would hardly have application to the weak gravitational fields found in the solar system which is the case I was referring to.  Well, I guess my half baked thought was that the magnetic lines of force might get wrapped around the sun or twisted because of the different geodesics they propagate through. I was not thinking of sunspots. Reminds me of my adolescence too much. Thanks for your patience, Leif.

Leif: “Except that no variation of the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate has ever been clearly demonstrated. I would be glad to comment on any claim to the contrary if provided with a link.”
Don’t know what weight “clearly” demonstrated has here, I’m just going on Ian WIlson’s AU article that assumes the equatorial rate is not constant.
“The Role of the Sun in Climate Change By Douglas V. Hoyt, Kenneth H. Schatten” on page 193 graphs “faster” and “slower” rates.
Another, “We have found the existence of a statistically significant 17-yr periodicity in the solar equatorial rotation rate.”
I’m sure you are aware of more than this, but my opinion is that not much of anything about the Sun has been “clearly demonstrated”.

Leif Svalgaard:
A paper [by usually reputable people whom I know personally] that may come closest to ‘demonstrating’ a long-term variation is: Long-term variations in solar differential rotation and sunspot activity  J Javaraiah  L Bertello  R K. Ulrich
ABSTRACT: The solar equatorial rotation rate, determined from sunspot group data during the period 1879-2004, decreased over the last century, whereas the level of activity has increased considerably. The latitude gradient term of the solar rotation shows a significant modulation of about 79 year, which is consistent with what is expected for the existence of the Gleissberg cycle. Our analysis indicates that the level of activity will remain almost the same as the present cycle during the next few solar cycles (i.e., during the current double Hale cycle), while the length of the next double Hale cycle in Sunspot activity is predicted to be longer than the Current one. We find evidence for the existence of a weak linear relationship between the equatorial rotation rate and the length of sunspot cycle. Finally, we find that the length of the current cycle will be as short as that of cycle 22, indicating that the present Hale cycle may be a combination of two shorter cycles.
SUGGESTED CITATION: J Javaraiah, L Bertello, and R K. Ulrich, “Long-term variations in solar differential rotation and sunspot activity” (2005). Solar Physics. 232 (1-2), pp. 25-40.

You can see it at: http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=4114&context=postprints
You can also link to their figure that shows how the equatorial rotation supposedly has varied: http://www.leif.org/research/SolarRotRate.png
You will, I’m sure, agree that this is pretty flimsy. Not the ’strong evidence’ that I at least would require in order to overthrow Einstein’s Equivalence Principle.
Just like with sun/weather-climate relations there are scores of such papers all showing flimsy ‘evidence’ with all kind of periods from day-to-day, 154 days, 1.3 years, 7 years, 11 and 22 years, etc. None of them convincing. I’ll certainly agree with you when you say that “my opinion is that not much of anything about the Sun has been “clearly demonstrated”” and therefore I cannot accept the ‘evidence’ of Wilson et al.

I forgot to draw attention to the final statement of their abstract: “Finally, we find that the length of the current cycle will be as short as that of cycle 22, indicating that the present Hale cycle may be a combination of two shorter cycles, sort of indicative of the uncertainty of the whole thing.”

Leif, Wouldn’t this be a clear demonstration of rotation rate variation?
“The equatorial rotation rate shows a systematic variation within each cycle. The rate is higher at the beginning of the cycle and decreases subsequently. Although quite small, the variation of solar differential rotation with respect to Zürich sunspot type was found. ”

Leif Svalgaard:
another flimsy paper on solar rotation and activity is one where I am a co-author: http://www.leif.org/research/ast10867.pdf
one of its conclusions is: the more magnetic the Sun is, the more rigid is its rotation.

Glenn:Wouldn’t this be a clear demonstration of rotation rate variation?
“The equatorial rotation rate shows a systematic variation within each cycle. The rate is higher at the beginning of the cycle and decreases subsequently. Although quite small, the variation of solar differential rotation with respect to Zürich sunspot type was found. ”
No, not IMHO. First, only three cycles were studied [=low statistical significance]. Second, the small changes they find are not of the kind that Wilson needs, namely a 179-year cycle, if I understand him correctly. Over the 11.86 year period of Jupiter, Saturn can be all over the place. He can not take any old variation as evidence. It has to be a specific and unique kind. I have to admit that I have only seen his abstract: I’m not going to pay $35 to read a paper that is in conflict with General Relativity. When Wilson came out with the paper, he was saying “I have irrefutable evidence that blah blah blah, but because of Intellectual Property Issues I cannot show it to you”. That kind of put me off, right there. If you have his paper, maybe send it to me.
The ‘finding’ also conflicts with our flimsy finding in http://www.leif.org/research/ast10867.pdf [Figure 1 does not show any such jump at the start of each cycle]. Typical of relationships that are on unsure ground and not generally accepted. If you continue your search you can find scores of such papers. I have read most of them over time as they came out. We have measured the solar rotation rate very carefully at Wilcox Solar Observatory (WSO) at Stanford since 1976 and see no systematic variation. I was one the builders of WSO and a preliminary paper describing the instrument, the data, and the results can be found at http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/full/1980ApJ…241..811S
Subsequent data up to the present fully corroborate the early results. It just so happens that I am kind of an expert on this 🙂

Leif, you said that “no variation of the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate has ever been clearly demonstrated.”
I believe that my refs and yours show that rotation rate has been observed to vary. Here’s a couple more: “The degree of the equatorial acceleration of the surface differential rotation is also found to have undergone the same 100 year periodic modulation during the same interval, reaching a minimum at cycle 14, a maximum at cycle 17, and a minimum at cycle 21 in antiphase with the modulation of M.”
“The equatorial rotation rate, increases with time or decreasing magnetic activity during the declining phase of solar cycle 23.”

Leif Svalgaard:
Glenn: Leif, you said that “no variation of the Sun’s equatorial rotation rate has ever been clearly demonstrated.”
I thought if was evident that the meaning was the no variation of the kind needed to explain the effect has been clearly observed. I elaborated on that like this: ”Second, the small changes they find are not of the kind that Wilson needs, namely a 179-year cycle, if I understand him correctly. Over the 11.86 year period of Jupiter, Saturn can be all over the place. He can not take any old variation as evidence. It has to be a specific and unique kind.”
A offered a link to the claimed variation at http://www.leif.org/research/SolarRotRate.png to show how poor the correlation was.
One of your examples claimed: “The equatorial rotation rate shows a systematic variation within each cycle. The rate is higher at the beginning of the cycle and decreases subsequently. ”
The new one from Howe says: “The equatorial rotation rate, increases with time or decreasing magnetic activity during the declining phase of solar cycle 23.”
Can’t you see that these are contradictory? and that therefore no “clear demonstration” has been made?
I’m sure you can find many more such contradictory claims and, perhaps, with judicious selection further your case…Which specific variation does Wilson advocate as evidence for his claim?

Thomas J. Arnold:
European politicians running round like headless chickens claiming that the end of the world is nigh!! – should be forcibly sat down and made to read this article.
Man-made global warming the new ‘orthodoxy’ replacing conventional belief. So many more immediate and pressing problems to address, but therein is the reason. Like Putin’s adventures in Georgia to deflect the populace away from economic and social inertia at home. So we Europeans are led down the garden path, towards global warming hysteria, leading our thoughts away from the real issues.
The End of the World barring a super volcano or a massive meteorite, or total Armageddon is not nigh! (maybe)

Stephen Wilde:
As I see it:
1) There is a clear correlation between climate and solar cycle activity and length over centuries