JazzRoc versus “Chemtrails”

Contrail Facts and “Chemtrail” Fictions

Posts Tagged ‘USAF

Bamboozled

with 3 comments

PAGE CONTENTS

BAMBOOZLED – BALONEY DETECTION KIT – BOENOID – BARD OF ELY BLOG RESPONSE –  A BLACK HOLE – BLUE LIGHT SCATTERING – CHEMTRAILERS WE LOVE YOU (NOT!)

Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page…

BAMBOOZLED

carl

One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we’ve been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We’re no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge — even to ourselves — that we’ve been so credulous. (So the old bamboozles tend to persist as the new bamboozles rise.) – Carl Sagan

BALONEY DETECTION KIT

b075PB_lg

As a society it falls upon us as individuals to live our lives using the best judgement possible.

For each of us it wasn’t always that way: as children we instinctively believed what our parents told us, which was a powerful defense mechanism that generally kept us out of harm’s way.

As we grow up this gullibility has to be exchanged for a healthy cynicism and sound judgment which will afford some protection from the intentional deception of sociopaths.

BOENOID

This is a comment posted at Uncinus’s excellent site Contrailscience late Sept 2009. It is rare to find such professionalism and terse accuracy in “chemtrailer” writing, and here is an experienced and technically competent writer presenting an opposite point of view. No surprise, there:

boeing factory

For what it is worth, I am a Boeing engineer with 20 years of experience in the aerospace industry.

* There are no special tanks anywhere on our airplanes to hold chemicals to be sprayed out.

* There are no spray nozzles on the airplanes either, unless you count the emergency fuel dump nozzles on the widebody jets.

* This can be readily ascertained by simply looking through an airplane before the interior wall panels are installed. Here is a list of all the tanks which are on a jetliner:

** Fuel, potable water, waste water, engine fire suppressant (Halon + other stuff), cargo fire suppressant (just Halon), hydraulic reservoirs. On the new airplanes you will also see tank-like devices which generate nitrogen to inert the fuel tanks.

* Further, there is no room for such stuff to get installed. You would have to carry TONS of liquid to make spray trails independent of the exhaust condensation, and the only liquid we carry tons of is Jet-A fuel.

* In Everett Washington, the Seattle flight museum has a restoration center where you can go see dismantled airplanes being readied for display in the museum. The work is done almost entirely by volunteers. I assume other flight museums have similar workshops. If you can find one where you live, go to the restoration center and see the planes up close. There’s no where to hide a sprayer system where it wouldn’t be seen by maintenance crews.

* The Boeing final assembly plant is open for tours by the public, and VIPs from all over the world can get close-up tours. The airplanes are built in a staggered sequence, so that two airplanes side-by-side are usually being made for two different airlines.

* The majority of Boeing’s production is sold overseas. In fact, the company is the nation’s largest exporter.

* Thus, if a domestic airplane was modified for “chemtrail production” in the factory, it would be as easy as pie for a foreign VIP to walk over and say, “What are these fancy tanks and sprayers on the American plane which aren’t on my airplane?”

* If any airplane WAS modified for chemtrail to add chemtrail sprayers, the thousands of Boeing employees would have to know. I don’t work in Fuels, and I can identify every tank and tube in the wing area.

* If thousands of Boeing employees knew, then so would thousands of supplier employees who go through our factories, thousands of airlines employees who go through our factories, and all the FAA and NTSB and DOT people as well. Also, our airplanes and factories are inspected by the Aviation Authorities of foreign countries (like EASA from Europe) and they would also need to be in on the conspiracy.

* There would simply be too many people involved to prevent this from leaking out. If the chem trail sprayers were being added in the factory, the secret would be out.

* So what if the chemtrail sprayers were being added by an aftermarket shop?

* You’re back to the same problem. It takes hundreds of people to design, build, and install a major modification on a jetliner, and the mod shops are just as open as Boeing is. You wouldn’t be able to keep the secret.

* Further, most airlines have their planes maintained by outside suppliers, who would have to be in on the conspiracy. Those who do their own maintenance do the work in open bays that again would make it easy to view the modification.

* And you have the same problem that you need to get thousands of maintenance people, suppliers, and certification authorities in on the conspiracy. It would have leaked by now. All it takes is one guy with a cell phone camera, and the world would know.

* So what if they somehow managed to do all this stuff anyway? Now you have to realize that somebody, somewhere, has to be pumping TONS of chemtrail chemicals into these mysterious hidden tanks on the airplanes. You would need a fill valve, and a distribution system, and special trucks carrying the chemicals disguised as fuel trucks. That would take thousands more people to be in on the conspiracy.

* One giveaway would be two fuel trucks pulling up to the same jetliner – one with the fuel and one with the chemicals. Remember, we’re talking about tons of liquid here.

* It just doesn’t work – you would need independent chemical fill ports, and somebody, somewhere, would notice.

* And while we’re talking about it, remember that every jetliner pilot has to check the weight of the plane and calculate a talk off runway length and other factors. The charts are the same for every jetliner of a given type, but if there really were chemtrail sprayers, then the charts for those airplanes would have to be different to account for the tons of chemicals that might be on the airplane.

* So, I really don’t think there is any way to hide the sprayers on jetliners. Too many people would have to know, and it would be too easy to detect by passerby.

* So, what if the chemtrail chemicals are in the jet fuel? This wouldn’t require ANY visible modifications to the airplanes, and far fewer people would have to know about the conspiracy.

* This would be harder to refute, BUT, you would have to discard the “on and off” contrails as being caused by pilots turning sprayers on and off. All the fuel on the plane came from the same fuel trucks and the same fuel tanks, so the supposed chemtrail would have to be continuous from takeoff until landing. I think that would have been noticed by now.

* So to my mind, that pretty much eliminates the possibility of using jetliners to create chemtrails.

* Which means you have to be using military jets, and thousands of them, flying unnoticed back and forth on normal commercial routes. So now you have to have all the air traffic controllers in on the conspiracy as well.

* And the planes will again need special tanks for the chemicals, and special fill ports, and special sprayers, and special tanker trucks filling the chemical tanks on the planes, special non-military suppliers delivering the stuff, and you’re right back to the same issue of needing to keep thousands of people from talking.

Bottom line:
You would need a special delivery system on the airplanes.
You would need a special fill system.
You would need independent tanker trucks.
You would need a separate supply chain.
You would need thousands and thousands of people to hold their tongues, and never have even ONE person leave any incriminating evidence in a safe deposit box to be discovered after their deaths.

It ain’t happening.

q8flight

BARD OF ELY BLOG – A RESPONSE

bard-1

BARD BLOG

“Although chemtrails are conspicuous in our skies and thousands of sites exist about the menace the mainstream media and the authorities are very quiet about the matter or ignore and deny their existence. This of course, adds fuel to the conspiracy theories!

But it’s not just the media and the officials that are silent because there is a similar wall of silence from successful singer-songwriters and rock stars as well as celebrities in general! What does this mean? is there some memo that gets circulated warning that if you mention chemtrails your contract is terminated? Are people too scared to mention such stuff in public? What is going on?

I say we need people who can get the media exposure to come forward on this matter! We need stars to talk about chemtrails on live TV and radio!

I believe we need protest songs about chemtrails! If anyone knows of any please let me know!”

There is no evidence that I have seen that trails in the sky are anything except the water and carbon dioxide (and trace amounts of NOX) left by the passage of gas turbines in the stratosphere.

Now water is drinkable, carbon dioxide is respired by plants to make sugar, and the NOX combines with water to form dilute nitric acid which forms nitrates on contact with soil, helping plants to grow.

The majority of trails in the skies of Earth cross the US continent, so it is they that will bear the brunt of this “contamination”. So be it. Their plants will grow a little better, is all. Although the daily burning of a million tons of kerosine seems massive to you, in relation to the mass of the Earth’s atmosphere it is NOTHING.

ALL of Man’s conflagrations, his best efforts annually, will raise the sea level by 0.0000000000001 per cent, for instance (approximately).

Now, as to whether STRANGE COMPOUNDS are surreptitiously being introduced into burning gas turbines, in order to distribute them as an aerosol throughout the Earth’s atmosphere, why on Earth would anyone do that? (It would HAVE to be THROUGH the turbine because spray devices external to the motor would have to be plainly visible).

It just doesn’t stand up to any logical consideration.

Your ignorance has lead to your paranoia.

I blame Western Culture as a whole for failing to instil a minimum but requisite standard of scientific knowledge for the technological conditions under which we live.

Desist this crap!

“I totally disagree! Please do some research Tony! I have been researching this for a long time! The planet is being geoengineered under Caps & Trade schemes. there are many things being done including weather modification which I have seen in the UK and here and is all known about if you dig deep! Try californiaskywatch.com for starters.”

Seeding clouds for rain with silver iodide crystals (or powdered tea!) is completely harmless. It IS NOT “weather modification”!

I have checked through the website above and NONE of the things mentioned bears ANY relationship to NATURAL VULCANISM, let alone the masses of the land, atmosphere and oceans.

The amount of ocean: imagine a cubic mile of ocean. One mile square, up to the height of Vilaflor from sea level. Got it?

Then imagine 500,000,000 of them.

Counting them at the rate of one per second will take you SIXTEEN years.

The ocean weighs 114,398,298,100,000,000 tons. One hundred and fourteen thousand trillion tons. That’s a HUGE dilution factor…

open_sea_sm

“you can watch trails that last and spread and no trails or old style contrails at the same time, you can watch planes with no trail start a trail and then stop. you can have a day or period of a day with old style normal clouds and blue sky followed by loads of chemtrails and a sky turned to a mass of fake clouds and haze”.

Contrails are a stratospheric phenomenon (not in the troposphere, where your weather is). The stratosphere is generally stable, layered (like an onion skin) with layers of water/air solutions at various temperatures and humidities. When they are moving in different directions to each other (and falling slightly) they form CIRRUS clouds. When they fall without any relative motion, they form CIRROSTRATUS clouds.

strato

Sometimes the layers are supersaturated and only require flying through (say by glider wings) to condense out water and form clouds. They understandably may get somewhat upset when a clumping great turbofan whistles through them. Sometimes (when the layer is SATURATED) the upset is permanent, but in general the stratosphere is less than saturated, and you see a temporary contrail which trails the plane for say a mile or so, before being re-absorbed. On days when the layers are ALL saturated, the contrails will hang there ALL DAY.

Contrails are WATER, and you are not being sensible.

“you can have a day or period of a day with old style normal clouds and blue sky”.

What you are talking about here is the TROPOSPHERE, which is the air between the ground and the stratosphere.

This is the atmosphere as you experience it at ground level. It is THE BULK of the total atmosphere, half of which is to be found beneath twelve thousand feet.

The STRATOSPHERE is to be found at DOUBLE that height and above, to a height of sixty thousand feet. It is relatively rarefied, very cold (-80 deg F, colder than Mars) and TRANSPARENT.

It is the atmosphere beneath twelve thousand feet which is responsible for the blue in the sky (by scattering of white light – the blue “scatters” whilst the red continues straight on).

On bad days in the latter part of WWII, the stratosphere was supersaturated when USAF Flying fortresses set out to precision-bomb German targets in their thousands. The Germans could see them coming from three hundred miles away, without radar, and could adjust their fighter attacks with time to spare. Bad days, with hundreds of bombers littering the path back to Blighty.

Do you suppose those bombing raids were chemical attacks?

“listen Tony I don’t see why you feel the need to insult me!”

No insult intended. I DESCRIBED you.

“i didn’t start this argument and if you have nothing f—ing better to do with your time f— off”.

It’s not an argument. It’s a discussion. I consider it important to correct the foolishness of a friend.

“I know what I see and have the opinions of thousands of others who see likewise”.

You don’t “know” what you see. That’s the point. You’re blogging others down a foolish path. That I feel compelled to prevent. The opinions of other deluded people don’t count for much, do they? Nor should you help to delude them, should you? It would be harmful, even evil, wouldn’t it?

“i certainly don’t need to be insulted by someone I thought was a friend”.

Then don’t FEEL insulted. You’re not the only person that has been foolish in the world are you?

I have given you an accurate account of what it was you thought you had seen. You have been given the benefit of my scientific experience.

Would it have been kind to remain silent?

You should should consider yourself assisted, helped, loved, by this friend, and as a consequence GIVE THIS STUPIDITY UP!

stupidity_test

A BLACK HOLE

Cygnus X-1

BlackHole

BLUE LIGHT SCATTERING

It seems to be normal for chemtrailers not to understand why our skies are blue.

Where were these people in junior school, or in science class? Outside?

White light is a MIXTURE of visible light frequencies. The Sun (which is the main source of all light by which we see, is a very hot body which radiates photons of many frequencies, some of which are so energetic that they would harm us if they could pass through our atmosphere – but they cannot.

What does pass through is mainly a tight group of frequencies, spanning just over an octave, which our eyes can see.

Our eyes have evolved to make use of these frequencies – naturally.

spectrum

Wikipedia: Rayleigh scattering

rp1

Rayleigh scattering causes the blue hue of the daytime sky and the reddening of the sun at sunset
rp2

It is more dramatic after sunset. This picture was taken about one hour after sunset at 500m altitude, looking at the horizon where the sun had set, showing the more intense scattering of blue light by the atmosphere relative to red light.

Rayleigh scattering (named after the English physicist Lord Rayleigh) is the elastic scattering of light or other electromagnetic radiation by particles much smaller than the wavelength of the light. It can occur when light travels in transparent solids and liquids, but is most prominently seen in gases.

Rayleigh scattering of sunlight in clear atmosphere is the main reason why the sky is blue: Rayleigh and cloud-mediated scattering contribute to diffuse light (direct light being sunrays).

For scattering by particles similar to or larger than a wavelength, see Mie theory or discrete dipole approximation (they apply to the Rayleigh regime as well).

Small size parameter approximation
The size of a scattering particle is parametrized by the ratio x of its characteristic dimension r and wavelength lambda:

r1

Rayleigh scattering can be defined as scattering in the small size parameter regime x < 1. Scattering from larger spherical particles is explained by the Mie theory for an arbitrary size parameter x. The Mie theory reduces to the Rayleigh approximation.

r2

The amount of Rayleigh scattering that occurs for a beam of light is dependent upon the size of the particles and the wavelength of the light (lambda). Specifically, the intensity of the scattered light varies as the sixth power of the particle size and varies inversely with the fourth power of the wavelength.

The intensity I of light scattered by a single small particle from a beam of unpolarized light of wavelength lambda and intensity I0 is given by:

r3

where R is the distance to the particle, lambda is the scattering angle, n is the refractive index of the particle, and d is the diameter of the particle.

The angular distribution of Rayleigh scattering, governed by the (1 + cos^2*lambda) term, is symmetric about the plane normal to the incident direction of the light (i.e. about lambda = 90°), and so the forward scatter equals the backwards scatter. Integrating over the sphere surrounding the particle gives the Rayleigh scattering cross section.

The Rayleigh scattering coefficient for a group of scattering particles is the number of particles per unit volume N times the cross-section. As with all wave effects, for incoherent scattering the scattered powers add arithmetically, while for coherent scattering, such as if the particles are very near each other, the fields add arithmetically and the sum must be squared to obtain the total scattered power.

rp4

Rayleigh scattering from molecules
A 5 mW green laser pointer is visible at night due to Rayleigh scattering and airborne dust. Rayleigh scattering from molecules is also possible. An individual molecule does not have a well-defined refractive index and diameter. Instead, a molecule has a polarizability a, which describes how much the electrical charges on the molecule will move in an electric field. In this case, the Rayleigh scattering intensity for a single particle is given by

r4

The amount of Rayleigh scattering from a single particle can also be expressed as a cross section s. For example, the major constituent of the atmosphere, nitrogen, has a Rayleigh cross section of 5.1×10^-31 m^2 at a wavelength of 532 nm (green light). This means that at atmospheric pressure, about a fraction 10^-5 of light will be scattered for every meter of travel.

The strong wavelength dependence of the scattering (~lambda-4) means that blue light is scattered much more readily than red light. In the atmosphere, this results in blue wavelengths being scattered to a greater extent than longer (red) wavelengths, and so one sees blue light coming from all regions of the sky. Direct radiation (by definition) is coming directly from the Sun. Rayleigh scattering is a good approximation to the manner in which light scattering occurs within various media for which scattering particles have a small size parameter.

Reason for the blue color of the sky
Rayleigh scattering is responsible for the blue color of the sky during the day. Rayleigh scattering is inversely proportional to the fourth power of wavelength, which means that the shorter wavelength of blue light will scatter more than the longer wavelengths of green and red light. This gives the sky a blue appearance.

Conversely, looking toward the sun, the colors that were not scattered away – the longer wavelengths such as red and yellow light – are visible. When the sun is near the horizon, the volume of air through which sunlight must pass is significantly greater than when the sun is high in the sky. Accordingly, the gradient from a red-yellow sun to the blue sky is considerably wider at sunrise and sunset.

Rayleigh scattering primarily occurs through light’s interaction with air molecules. Some of the scattering can also be from aerosols of sulfate particles. For years following large Plinian eruptions, the blue cast of the sky is notably brightened due to the persistent sulfate load of the stratospheric eruptive gases. Another source of scattering is from microscopic density fluctuations, resulting from the random motion of the air molecules. A region of higher or lower density has a slightly different refractive index than the surrounding medium, and therefore it acts like a short-lived particle that can scatter light.
References
Rayleigh scattering at Hyperphysics
Maarten Sneep and Wim Ubachs, Direct measurement of the Rayleigh scattering cross section in various gases. Journal of Quantitative Spectroscopy and Radiative Transfer, 92, 293 (2005).
C.F. Bohren, D. Huffman, Absorption and scattering of light by small particles, John Wiley, New York 1983. Contains a good description of the asymptotic behavior of Mie theory for small size parameter (Rayleigh approximation).
Ditchburn, R.W. (1963). Light (2nd ed.). London: Blackie & Sons. pp. 582–585.
Chakraborti, Sayan (September 2007). “Verification of the Rayleigh scattering cross section”. American Journal of Physics 75 (9): 824-826. doi:10.1119/1.2752825.
Ahrens, C. Donald (1994). Meteorology Today: an introduction to weather, climate, and the environment (5th ed.). St. Paul MN: West Publishing Company. pp. 88–89.

syrian 747

And so when we see aircraft from the ground (this is a Syrian Air Boeing 747) we cannot expect to see its markings. They have been “scattered” away. You will only see its markings by taking pictures of it from up close.

CHEMTRAILERS WE LOVE YOU

(NOT!)

It’s that moment when you have engaged your sophisticated and educated brain in a discussion with a chemtrailer and he suddenly starts talking about vertical “chemtrails” and challenges you to to justify those… You point out that only some fighter aircraft can travel vertically, and this guy says no, it was a “tanker aircraft” and while you are wondering what the hell, you realize that he doesn’t understand perspective at all, and he’s really talking about trails coming towards you and passing overhead you. Which means, of course, that you’re wasting your time with exotic explanations involving crossing shuttle routes.

Or when someone sends you a picture of a broken trail, and you can see that it had been a continuous trail before some crook had photoshopped it. So you tell him it’s a fraudulent picture, and so he sends you a color-processed copy so damned effective that you can see each individual photoshop spraying pass, thinking he has proved his point. I drew lines and arrows pointing exactly where it was occurring, and he still couldn’t see it.

Enough from me.

I want information, not a video of some guy’s grass saying “chemtard” over and over. ”

But, that is what this video IS! You are complaining because I didn’t give YOU what YOU want in this video?! Are you f*****g kidding me?! I didn’t force you to come here and make the assumption that I’m supposed to “teach” you something! I make it PERFECTLY clear in my videos that I’m not here to educate any lazy and ignorant chemtard! I tried that in the past… It wasn’t worth my time. Learn for yourself!
I even make it PERFECTLY clear in the “info” area that I don’t have time to be wasting on f*****g ignorant chemtards! Where do you see ANYTHING about me being an information booth?! Who said it’s MY f*****g job to educate YOU?!?

I must say he seems reasonable to me. Stars, save me…

KeystoneSTARS

Blathering

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PAGE CONTENTS

BLATHERING – BLOBLAW005 – BLUSTER – BOOBLUBE – BRITANNICA – BROKEN CONTRAILS – BUTT – CAPS

Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page… 

BLATHERING

grid

“those sky-grids” – you’re about to get the works on that from ME.

“scientific evidence proves that a great increase of planes cannot affect the upper stratosphere” – NO, IT DOESN’T AT ALL. Few aircraft fly in the UPPER stratosphere. They fly in the lower stratosphere, just above the tropopause. The stratosphere is easily affected by combustion exhaust water, because it is stable, and has only sublimation into water vapor, and the force of gravity upon the ice crystals, causing them to fall, as mechanisms for removal. Contrails spread in saturated or supersaturated conditions to cover the whole sky. What scientific evidence is this?

storm

“you’re implying that air-layers combine suitably within an hour” – stratospheric layers don’t combine at all, but they may be filled with ice crystals as the planes’ wave vortices stir the layer contents.

“50’s, 60’s and 70’s disseminated all over Britain (millions of ppl affected)” – YOU’RE MISTAKEN AGAIN. Didn’t you know that WATER, KILLED BACTERIA, and a PHOSPHORESCENT DYE are HARMLESS? Please refer to me the records indicating that millions of people were affected. And, anyway, wasn’t this to do with finding out how to combat Russian germ warfare attack? Before you make free with the FALSEHOODS you should look up contrailscience.com and find out how your blathering stands up to reality. And for a further perspective on Man versus Nature you could look up my blog on:

http://www.myspace.com/jazzroc

BLOBLAW005

I’ve debated the contrail vs. chemtrail theories with jazzroc for the past couple of months. I did present a well researched and thought out scientific argument to him. His response was to delete my comments from his weblog, and to block any comments I post.

That’s because:

a) you didn’t debate anything: you posted using an anonymous email address – once. That isn’t a debate. If you look in that inbox you’ll find letters from me still awaiting your response.

b) your research was poor and your science non-existent. There was nothing in your post which advanced anything. Except sophistry.

Contrails are known and measured as part of atmospheric science. It is “chemtrails” that is a theory.

What about the Bergeron-Findeisen theory? Can persistent contrails exist if the Bergeron-Findeisen theory were true?

If there ARE differing vapour pressure requirements for deposition of water onto either super-cooled droplets or ice crystals, then the Bergeron-Findeisen Theory is true, and the droplets will evaporate in favour of deposition onto the ice crystals. The evaporation will then raise the humidity, making it even more likely that the next aircraft will leave a permanent trail. Super-cooled droplets are produced aerodynamically over the wings in marginally-warmer conditions: the exhausts produce ice crystals at -40 or colder, which is the general rule over 30,000 feet.

But that makes no difference to the final outcome, which is that persistent contrails are clouds of ice crystals which cannot evaporate into the fully-saturated atmosphere which surrounds them.

Nor to the conclusions one can draw, which are:

a) that persistent trails are natural, and not the confirmation of “chemtrails”, and

b) all other “proofs” having been shown to be fraudulent, the case for “chemtrails” is non-existent.

Were you to study any physics at all, your “theory” would vanish, your “debate” disappear. 

BLUSTER

“tell not contrails” – NO YOU CANNOT. See below.

“My entire life this never happened” – It was happening BEFORE YOU WERE BORN.

“I watch planes/real contrails, and they disappear, but these chemtrails DO Not” – Your assumption is INCORRECT. Contrails CAN and DO persist in HUMID stratospheric conditions.

“only spray where the population lives” – Above every town is a RISING PLUME of HEAT and HUMIDITY. Contrails MAY persist in these plumes. Also you may care to check out satellite pictures from space, which show quite clearly that the trails form within humid atmospheric conditions.

“How stupid do they think people are?” – How stupid do you wish to remain?

“back and forth over the towns” – These are SEPARATE planes, each either COMING or GOING. No videos have ever shown a “spraying” plane circling to respray a town, because these aircraft are civil flights from one major airport to another.

“Why?” – Your answer’s above…

“targeting these areas/get the full benefit of the poisons” – JUST BULLSHIT AND BLUSTER (LIES). Just dial up a satellite view and you will see contrails wherever the atmosphere is moist. That is, randomly over land AND ocean, wherever the conditions are HUMID.

yourlungsglowlikeabeacon

 BOOBLUBE

It is YOU that has been handed a line – which you cannot handle.

Don’t send me any more “information”. I am a very fast reader and have read and seen everything you’ve seen.

You have a problem with reasoning. Any reasonable educated person would listen to Carnicom for about FIVE minutes, and then switch him off. The reason he would do that is that he breaks all the rules of journalism and science. Instead of supplying EVIDENCE and PROOF he makes further assertions, breaking the “legal” chain of evidence. If you cannot see that I am sorry for you, but I’m no longer prepared to help you.

What makes you think that airborne materials MUST have come from an airplane, for instance? Do you KNOW how far vapour trail materials DRIFT? I don’t even need a calculator to tell you – from an altitude of seven miles it’s going to be AT LEAST TWO HUNDRED MILES DOWNWIND.

What makes you think that as you read this, you are NOT ingesting pathogens and metals? I can tell you that, for sure, you ARE, AND HAVE ALWAYS BEEN INGESTING THEM. YOU ALWAYS WILL.

Your body is a DYNAMIC device, evolved over 4 billion years to COPE with such stresses. It WILL eliminate those metals AND KILL those pathogens.

germs

It’s just a question of degree…

You lack the scientific understanding to prevent you from freely believing the UNBELIEVABLE.

DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

“Namely, they persist for hours (eventually turning into a haze that doesn’t go away”

They’re in the stratosphere. That is, above five miles UP, about a fifth of atmospheric pressure, as warm as -40 deg C, maybe as cold as -80 deg, which is colder than the surface of Mars.

mars

Passing planes laying 100lb of ICE per mile will SOON saturate the stratospheric layer they are in. Once that happens, the ice of the trail CANNOT SUBLIME ANY MORE INTO WATER VAPOUR. It MUST remain. It WILL persist for hours. The only reason it doesn’t persist for EVER, is that it is HEAVY, and FALLING.

“water doesn’t act that way” -You are WRONG. Water in the stratosphere is ICE. Not ice like in your fridge, more like finely powdered GLASS. I’ve lived in Germany, and deep in the continental land mass the temperature can fall very low in winter. I have experienced -40 deg C, and let me tell you ICE ISN’T EVEN SLIPPERY AT -40 DEG C. It is HARD and it is DRY. Say you were in a balloon at 32,000 feet and an Airbus came just by you at 575mph.

chemtrailsfront

You’d be amazed at its speed, and also its colossal WAVE VORTEX, as it whirled the two trails around itself in two columns fifty yards across. The trail would sting your face like wind-whipped sand on a beach. Of course, your face would fall off with the intense cold as well…

“they are sprayed from unmarked aircraft” – WRONG AGAIN. They are marked, but the markings become invisible from the ground due to a phenomenon called “blue light scattering”. Had the plane been painted BLACK, from the ground you would see NO PLANE AT ALL

“they stop and start in a manner not consistent with normal contrail formation” – WRONG AGAIN. They start and stop PERFECTLY consistent with normal contrail formation. The trails are created in saturated or supersaturated air. The “inconsistency” is firmly in your understanding of the nature of the stratosphere.

Your mistake lies in assuming that these AIRS are DISTINGUISHABLE: they are NOT. All types of air are TRANSPARENT, get it? INVISIBLE! Hence a plane flying through dry air leaves no trail. It hits a humid area: it leaves a trail. Stop, start, stop, start. This can happen for miles: stratospheric layers frequently form ripples as a consequence of atmospheric compressibility following on downwind from upward ground projections such as ridges and mountains…

lenticularcloud

“photographed as not even coming from the engines” – That’s right. Either a) You don’t understand that the time taken for the exhaust to cool down from +1100 degrees to -40 degrees manifests itself as a GAP, or b) the plane has hit SUPERSATURATED air, when the WHOLE AIRFRAME sets a trail and the tightest vortices (wingtips, control surface ends) will cause the MOST ICE to get dumped.

“I don’t remember them as a child or teen” – I DO. I was always keen on aircraft, making them from the age of 7. Why would you? You wouldn’t be LOOKING for them. In our lifetime we’ve seen a TREMENDOUS increase in low-cost air travel, and a VERY RECENT increase in cheap videocams, and reduction in educational standards…

vcam

“the media will not talk about the issue” – They only talk about things that increase their sales. They also have good scientific advice which deters them from printing unconsidered rubbish. Living on the Spanish Canary Islands, I don’t read the media much…

“and some other reasons” – You better tell me what they are, for so far you have NOTHING… 

BRITANNICA

britannicaIt says IN THE ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA:

http://contrailscience.com/persisting-and-spreading-contrails

Contrail, streamer of cloud sometimes observed behind an airplane flying in clear, cold, humid air. It forms upon condensation of the water vapour produced by the combustion of fuel in the airplane engines. When the ambient relative humidity is high, the resulting ice-crystal plume may last for several hours. The trail may be distorted by the winds, and sometimes it spreads outwards to form a layer of cirrus cloud.

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9074829 

Broken Contrails

from “Uncinus” of “Contrailscience”

Contrails are clouds made from water vapor that condenses then freezes behind a plane engine. Since the engines are on constantly, it seems a bit odd when you see contrails with gaps in them, or even contrails that stop and start. If the engine is pumping out a constant amount of water, then why is the trail not constant? This puzzle is sometimes seized on by people who think that persistent contrails are actually “chemtrails”, or some kind of deliberate spraying operation.

But it’s actually very simple. The amount of water in the exhaust is pretty constant, but the amount of moisture in the air is not. The humidity varies with altitude in the stratosphere, and a layer of low humidity can be sandwiched between two layers of high humidity. As a plane climbs or descends through this layer, then the trail will only form in the areas of high humidity, and so look like it was “switched off” in the area of low humidity.

You can get the same effect with temperature. A warm layer of air can actually lay on top of a colder layer in what is called an “inversion” (you’ll hear this on the weather sometimes, referred to as an “inversion layer”). When a plane flies through this inversion layer, the trail can be “broken”.

It’s not just climbing or descending flights either. The boundaries between these layers is not flat, and gravity waves or rising convection currents of air can create large volumes of air that differ in temperature and/or humidity from the neighboring air, and so can break (or make) the contrail when the plane flies through them.

Don’t take my word for it though. Do a Google search for “broken contrail” and you’ll find lots of examples, and similar explanations.

NOAA – “Occasionally a jet plane, especially if ascending or descending, will pass through a much drier or more moist layer of atmosphere which may result in a broken pattern to the contrail, with it appearing in segments rather than in one continuous plume.”

AirSpace Magazine – “If the contrail stops, then starts up again, creating a broken line, chances are the airplane flew through a dry patch.”

Doc Weather – “What is happening here is that warm air rising from the ground carries vast amounts of water vapor upwards into the highest levels of the atmosphere. This water vapor exists as massive, plumes of warm, moist air ascending to very high levels. When a rising plume reaches the upper atmosphere it condenses into high ice clouds known as cirrus or feather clouds. In the case of the jet contrail (condensation trail) in the first image, the condensing cloud formed where the aircraft passed through a rising plume of moist warm air. The air on either side of the plume was not sufficiently moist to support the formation of an enduring cloud. As a result the contrail only remained visible in the warm plume.”

brokentrails

Now study the pictures above. The one on the left was entitled “broken contrail”, the one on the right “broken chemtrail”. If you know anything about analyzing computer jpg files, you will discover the one on the right to be FAKED (even though a telephone wire appears to pass through the “gap” in the “trail”.

Interesting, isn’t it? The “broken contrail” is honest, the “broken chemtrail” fake… 

BUTT

Sniker, you don’t know the WHY so don’t tell me the HOW.

It’s a case of RELATIVE humidity and DEW POINT. HOT WATER VAPOUR, which is what “steam” is, can only MAKE UP the air’s humidity to its 100% RH level as it cools down. Beyond that it MUST form droplets of water or crystals of ice, depending on the air temperature.

In either case (troposphere or stratosphere) if the air doesn’t get to its 100% RH the water will evaporate or sublime into water vapour over a short period. Stratospheric air is MORE LIKELY to be saturated or supersaturated BECAUSE it is LAMINAR, whereas the troposphere is TURBULENT, being the BOUNDARY LAYER. Hence you sometimes get PERSISTENT TRAILS in the stratosphere.

Jets DO leave WATER contrails down below in humid 95%+ conditions where they occur (tropics mostly) but they are more difficult to see, and CT guys aren’t videoing there. There is a YT CT vid which clearly shows the APU (auxiliary power unit – all passenger planes have them) laying a faint trail (in Canada!), before it makes its stupid claim.

Clifford Carnicom forswore Science with his website. From his “USAF lies to America”, to his analysis (from the ground!) of a “chemtrail”, his site is a FARRAGO OF DECEIT. If you had ever made a study of LOGIC or ANALYSIS, you’d KNOW.

“just swipe your finger on random sufaces and hold up to sun and see the metal particals!” – You live in an INDUSTRIALIZED SOCIETY. You should expect CRAP in your air. Learn to spell. 

CAPS

Sorry to disappoint. Here goes:

“antagonistic to empire/super-state comprising pentagon/blah/nasa, why do you think population culling is off the table” – because while it may be possible to blow away a president, and even easy to blow away a nonentity, it becomes very much harder to blow away the vast majority. Wars are a mess, and the only quick and final war would be a nuclear spasm. Poisons and diseases are slow, and have poor coverage. Logistically they are impossible. Practically they don’t work because people can move! Angry people (the ones you’ve missed!) become ferocious opponents. Ask the Germans about the Poles. Talk to Americans about the Vietnamese. To Israeli Jews about Palestinians. The Kurds about Iraqis.

conspiracy_tot21

“why not read history as if you were not immune to it” – I have done. It’s the only way to develop an immunity.

“you are a pawn” – I may have been a pawn, but no longer. If necessary I shall simply sail away. If anyone interferes with me I shall interfere with them.

“the industrial age drawing to a close” – Give me strength! There is more industry now than there has ever been. Knowledge hasn’t drawn to a close. Ability hasn’t drawn to a close. Necessity is the mother of invention. Take a look at the Afghans. The Pacific Ring…   …China…

china

“new game in the offing” – Yeah, yeah. Robots blah blah. There’s a great lawnmower and a great vacuum cleaner. Get out the Gray Goo, let’s off the peeps. You haven’t a clue.

“much fewer pawns” – stop reading science fiction and take a look outside. Out, not up! Sorry about the missing caps.

pawn

Written by JazzRoc

November 14, 2008 at 1:00 am

Posted in Aviation, chemtrails, contrails, science, Truth

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Not Coming

with 2 comments

This is a lenticular cloud - and not an Adamski Scoutship

PAGE CONTENTS

NOMEANSNO – NOT COMING – NOT HEALTHY – NOTHING – NOTRAILS – NUTS (TO SOMEONE WHO BLOCKED ME) – OFFICIAL (VERSION) – OGRISH – OUTSIDE IN – PAINT – PENITENT (The Longest Day II)

Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page…

NOMEANSNO

People queuing up to be poisoned by a sprayer whose pilot was just too lazy to switch the spray off

This gentleman really means “No!” He has decided the way it is, and anything that doesn’t fit the way he sees it, is OUT.

Hey Jazzy, you seem to find me about every 6 months or so. I can’t return comments on the re:on off video so i thought I would PM you. First to set it straight, are you debunking this guy?:
/watch?v=E0AzCIzDf6I&NR=1
I know there is more to this whole topic than meets the eye. I am professionally trained in the field of thermal transfer and am fully aware of the conditions of our atmosphere. I have a better than average grasp of physics. And am a practicing expert in philosophy.
That said, any information you have of the current global attempts at controlling/modifying the weather would be appreciated. I have gleaned from our “discussions” that you know more than you are letting on. Why do the bulk of your ilk argue in the same manner? Act open to discussion yet when the chips are down, retreat behind a veil of name calling. G

First to set it straight, are you debunking this guy?:

No. Michio is setting things straight here. A whole generation of radiation meters under-read a while back. The first time such meters went into space they read NOTHING. This was because the radiation overexposure SATURATED them. All that needs to be done is add some redundancy to the network, so that info can be moved out of the way of the storm. Satellites in earth’s shadow remain useful, and advance warning of approaching storms is already in place.

I know there is more to this whole topic than meets the eye. I am professionally trained in the field of thermal transfer and am fully aware of the conditions of our atmosphere. I have a better than average grasp of physics. And am a practicing expert in philosophy.

I don’t believe you at all. Anyone with the slightest grasp of physics knows you are barking up the wrong tree.

wobbly moment as spray pilot misses the switch in the gloom

That said, any information you have of the current global attempts at controlling/modifying the weather would be appreciated.

There are none. Just you bunch talking up a storm.
1. Teller’s Bar/Al Welsbach materials need placing higher in the atmosphere than planes can fly.
2. It’s possible to make liquid organic metals but they are expensive, corrosive, prone to spontaneous ignition, and don’t pump easily. If burnt in a turbofan they would destroy it in seconds,
3. If burnt in a turbofan there would be no GAP in the trail between the exhaust and the trail beginning. Instead the exit flame would be colored green or white.
These three objections, coupled with the fact that a jet is a 2000 deg F FLAME rule out completely ANY chemtrailer notion. One’s enough…

I have gleaned from our “discussions” that you know more than you are letting on.

Of course I do. It’s a huge field and 500 chrs is a small space to play in.

Why do the bulk of your ilk argue in the same manner? Act open to discussion yet when the chips are down, retreat behind a veil of name calling.

It’s a product of your hypocritical rose-tinted glasses worn as part of a partisan group. The opposite of what you say is almost always the truth. I certainly find personally that any chemtrailer’s assertion is a negative pointer to the truth of any matter. Faithinscience is abusive, and stands alone. I am normally abused after my first question which receives no answer, The abuser never seems to notice what he does. It’s almost like “Tourettes syndrome”.
In atmospheric physics the behavior of aircraft has been well understood for sixty years. Hundreds of papers have been written minutely examining the contents of trails to thousandths of a percent. These days they are measured and assayed using laser interferometry from satellite or ground.
It is known that in the stratosphere a jumbo can lay down thirty-five pounds of ice for each yard of forward flight. Did you know that?
The ice laid in what is technically known as a “persistent spreading contrail” can be ten thousand times heavier than the exhausted ice. Did you know that?
Now can you put one and one together and see what your mind has been doing to you?

I did not know that, and still don’t. I can not find any corroborating evidence to support such a claim, Ice is 977 times denser than vapour – a far cry from 10,000.
If Michio Kaku is so sure about a coming solar storm, you think nothing is being done about this? You don’t know about haarp and the other 25 such devices around the globe. The inventor/developer of this technology is on the record stating its scope of use?
I am well aware of contrail science, but normal contrails do not act this way, at least they didn’t when I was younger. If the reason for the extra spreading of contrails as of late, is normal, there is serious pollution issues in the stratosphere. And we should be rallying to put an end to this waste.

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf
You cannot find corroborating evidence because you only find “chemtrailer” lies. To avoid them you must use “Advanced Search” and include “-chemtrail” and “-aerosol” in your search terms. Then if you search for “paper stratosphere aviation combustion ice trail cirrus cloud”, for instance, you get an entirely different set of results.
We’re all sure of the approaching storm. The solar cycle is well understood. I’ve told you something is being done about this. HAARP has nothing to do with this. The Sun can be hundreds of times more powerful than HAARP. The scope of use doesn’t extend as far as countering a solar storm – nor could it ever.
You aren’t aware at all of anything. You do look silly contradicting thousands of clever hard-working people. Everything you have been talking about and believe about “chemtrails” is DIRECTLY CONTRADICTED BY REAL SCIENCE. Since when was ICE pollution? When water vapor comes out of solution in the air of the stratosphere at -40 deg F and seven miles up, it materializes as PURE ICE. The initial “pollution” of the internal combustion engine becomes diluted TEN THOUSAND TIMES. That makes it quite fresh…. As I have told you previously, EVERY word you utter points in the opposite direction to TRUTH. You waste my time. Go to a library.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V95-3V5YS7F-1C&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F31%2F1998&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_searchStrId=1186771367&_rerunOrigin=scholar.google&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4c14e8bcc11a5d4214e1afea2634d331
This is exactly how i use the term aerosol. You are an ass. Well? Facts: you can’t back such a bs statement: “The ice laid in what is technically known as a “persistent spreading contrail” can be ten thousand times heavier than the exhausted ice.”

“Well? Facts: you can’t back such a bs statement: ‘The ice laid in what is technically known as a “persistent spreading contrail” can be ten thousand times heavier than the exhausted ice.'”

http://www-pm.larc.nasa.gov/sass/pub/journals/atlas_JAMC2006.pdf
This reference I gave to you previously.
Page 17, second column second para: “The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 1.6 x 10^4 gm per meter, some three to four orders of magnitude greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values.”

Do you want more DIRECT CONTRADICTION, or is that enough for you? By the way “orders of magnitude” means “powers of ten”. FOUR orders is 10 x 10 x 10 x 10 = 10,000… Got it? Further searches along the lines I have already indicated to you will bring up further corroboration. If you have the courage to undertake it…

3 to 4 is a fair jump. would you not agree? And from a nasa science lab to boot. “ahh a thousand, ten thousand whats the diff! ”
There is ample eye witness testimony, doctor reports and interviews, lab reports, professional statements, police fireman… all leaning towards a large scale effort to prepare for the solar storms. HAARP may be a small but crucial element in this effort. To think a govt agency would state something intentionally erroneous is preposterous! ***warren commish, 911 commish *cough-cough*

It stated the facts precisely. It is YOU who pretends otherwise. It’s only one of many papers which all say similar things. Some of them are in different languages. The last time I looked there were hundreds. There’s none so blind as one who does not wish to see.
You ask for an example then give a spurious reason to dismiss it. You call BS and then weasel out.
Preparation for high solar activity is normal. Your slant on it is absurd. I’m sure you’re unaware how you’re now changing the subject. Warren Commission? Far out! Go back to school. Unless you haven’t been in the first place. And write me no more.

so you agree with Michio but not me? YES
There is absolute proof of world wide under ground construction. SO?
From Gates’ Norwegian seed cave to the Denver Airport, yet you deny this????? NO
The sun is about to do something never witnessed by modern man. BALLS
The scope of the ability of haarp includes protection from such an event. BALLS
Warren commission’s magic bullet and the 911 commission’s magic passport should raise the hackles on the most conservative of skeptics. BALLS
so you agree with Michio but not me? YES

The sun is about to do something never witnessed by modern man. BALLS
This is WHAT Michio stated, so one of your answers here is wrong, or balls is an affirmative to you. Which is it?
And as for the passport laying on the street unscathed, if you buy that then you are an idiot. there is no way a passport went through that explosion and ended up unscathed a few blocks away. no way. This, M. Atta’s passport was planted.

It’s going through an active phase so it MIGHT do something never before witnessed. That doesn’t mean it will. The way you interpret these facts is the BALLS. Same goes for the passport. You cannot conceive of it so for you it is inconceivable. While you fail to interpret these events, the REAL events are passing you by…

btw your response fits 3 of these:
http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html#Twenty-Five_Rules_of_Disinformation__

It would, whether or not I was a “disinformer”.
This whole approach (of yours) IS disinformation. Everything “chemtrail” is LIES AND EYE-BULGING HYPOCRISY.
You only have to visit a library to find real information.
“Truth cannot live on a diet of secrets, withering within entangled lies. Freedom cannot live on a diet of lies, surrendering to the veil of oppression. The human spirit cannot live on a diet of oppression, becoming subservient in the end to the will of evil. God, as truth incarnate, will not long let stand a world devoted to such evil. Therefore, let us have the truth and freedom our spirits require… or let us die seeking these things, for without them, we shall surely and justly perish in an evil world.”
This above statement is out of YOUR literature. It APPLIES TO YOU.
Have you noticed how your OWN information NEVER recommends you visit a library? According to your “sources” it is often a “fact” that existing sources have been “tampered with”. Does that seem plausible to you? Each book made by the million, circulated to thousands of libraries, sold privately to hundreds of thousands of people. Each reclaimed and altered?
Every day some pathetic individual tasks me about conspiracies, smogs, fuels, contrails, 9-11, with some pet theory that seems entirely original to him. It’s not original. It’s all been done, and probably in the planning stage, by people trained and qualified and with your best interests to heart, for they have to live in your world too. They have already proved their intelligence and willingness to work hard. All you have to do is the same.
In the meantime, shut up with the crap. That worked for me, it could do so for you.

Have you noticed how your OWN information NEVER recommends you visit a library?
WTF? I started this whole thing off, asking if you, or that faith dude, if you had read Dr Eastlund, or Dr Begich or William Thomas, all available in libraries. You are an asshole, your “holier than thou” attitude would get a boot in the ass in person.

Only if I don’t smack you first. I read such technical books BEFORE Eastlund, Begich and Thomas. And I avoided being a creep too. The FACTS are holier than either of us. You’re the one who can’t deal with a technical report made by the finest scientists in their field. Learn to stand on your feet.

NO, Michio stated, “around 2012 the sun’s magnetosphere WILL flip, sending out a shockwave of radiation”, not might, or may. The unknown is the effect this will have on communications and the grid. So you are giving Mr Kaku the same “know it all” attitude. As for chemtrails, you know the causal effects pertaining to contrail formation, and could you not envision a way to increase this effect? People already have. Patents exist and have been bought by the US Navy.

ISS and Shuttle before the Sun

It won’t be doing anything it hasn’t done before “around 2012”. The reason why there will be an unknown effect of communication is that we have a higher dependency on this rather radiation-sensitive machinery known as microelectronics than we had the last time around. Any other reason you come up with will be a readout on your condition. The action of a turbofan on a low-pressure low-temperature supersaturated stratosphere could not be more extreme than it already is. Which you would understand if you have studied the subject, Which you have not. There are patents for a hotel on the Moon. Why don’t you go there? Now. While you’re there you could take a book or two… Make’em science books…

So then you do disagree with michio, man are you hard to converse with. Alter your comments and ignore facts for insults, like you are stupid, instead of saying “this is where you are wrong” type comment. I take it you did not even listen to the link of the leading physicists of our time.

The reason I am hard to converse with is that I break concepts down to their essentials where you cannot. You cannot, because you bring an agenda to the table of your own which you will support at all costs – as you have just demonstrated, for the above reasoning slipped by you as though it wasn’t there. Telling you where you are going wrong isn’t an insult. You’ll know it when I insult you. You’ll have to improve your stature first.

the navy hasn’t bought up all the moon hotel patents have they? By the time you are satisfied on this subject it will be too late. Again, insults instead of FACTS.
FYI: “…that the magnetic field of the sun undergoes a drastic change every 11,500 to 12,000 years.” That would make it modern man has never seen this occur. Of course you will bitch about the term modern man, I am referring to historic records, not evolutionary records. Oh we should check if you believe in evolution first, could be a whole can of worms with you.
Other time around? you are confusing this coming event with recorded c.m.e. events that have been witnessed. this pole shift has not been ever witnessed by a modern civilization. I am not extrapolating comments or theorizing on events, I am taking physicists words for the truth.
What i do think about is if there is proof our world leaders know about this and are doing anything to prepare/prevent or protect us from this coming solar storm. And by all accounts they are, yet you choose to insult and languish in your knowledge, acting like there is nothing in this world you don’t fully grasp. Shame.

“…that the magnetic field of the sun undergoes a drastic change every 11,500 to 12,000 years.”
Does that make the change due NOW, 500 years from NOW, or some time in-between?

I’m not about to instruct you, even if you look to me as pathetic as a goldfish that’s just flopped out of its tank. DO your own work. I had to do the same. “Modern”. LOL

See, yet again insults. Water off a ducks back, my e-asshole. You seem satiated with the power of ten in your facts, where as this one is what like 5%, Kaku and others have seen this event as happening in 2012, why do you think that could be? Our sun is acting the oddest it has since we have been observing it, yet you know better. Oh wise one!

Satiated with LOGIC, more like. You should try it some time.

there will be credible samples retrieved soon enough. You will doubt those at first as well.
one last thing: why does no one direct me to info on how the trail from a plane will thin out, width-wise, turn into virga and cover a quarter of the sky. Not one source for the science behind this, and not to mention this has only been occurring for the last 20 years or so. Pollution, perhaps. Then should this not be a wake up call to clean up our act. The tons of fuel burned daily to cart people around is mind boggling. 230 million gallons per day according to BP. Could this not be the factor increasing the so called persistent contrails?

The reasons why “no-one directed” you is that the explanation is complex. It is actually there, in the reference I gave you. In the report.
Simply speaking, it is helped by the aircraft’s wave vortex. The trails are swept up in it, turning inside out many times within it for several minutes. Vortex motion ceases some fifty miles behind the aircraft. The slight downward angle of the vortex would put that end hundreds of metres lower in the stratosphere. Trails ALWAYS fall. Also the two side-by-side trails can interfere with each other, and “link” together in what look exactly like smoke rings. This is called “the Crow Instability”.

As a consequence the underside of the trail adopts a “sawtooth” appearance. Each “tooth” is a virga. At every virga centre is a downward-moving column of air. This is where much of the ice deposition takes place. Because of the increased weight of the heavier ice particles they fall faster.
This whole process continues, falling through, until the surrounding stratospheric layer has no ice to give. As the particles fall down through the lower stratosphere they are falling into COLDER air, which supports them. The layers may be drier, so they evaporate there. (But generally the reverse is true: the layers get less capable of holding water vapor in solution as the temperature falls). It is possible that only when the ice crystals reach the warmer air beneath the tropopause, they finally evaporate. This will be normally a level surface. Hence the flat grey underside appearance you typically see. That underside will be between four and five miles high at European latitudes.

What I have written here is itself an over-simplification.
If you are really interested in knowing more, my blog offers many sources. You just have to follow the links till you get to the papers, and then look up the references the papers themselves leave. Do that for a while and you will know at least as much as I do, Maybe.

no, no, no…  you are describing a natural event, the persistent contrail.
In a week or so I will put together a video SHOWING what I am talking about. One of your cohort, jesuslives57, went through this same argument. I am referring to the complete thinning out of a trail, till it is spread wide open, filling the sky! Maybe you have never seen this occur. That would explain your position. There is no reason for a normally produced contrail to act like this, without some extra factor.
See, I have read up on all of this, have research atmospheric sites and have emailed meteorologist…all with no answer for my question. Most ignore, some, like you, repeat the known information, some like jl57, deny this is from planes!
I witnessed a plane over Victoria BC two summers ago. It flew directly over the city left three circular blobs, relatively small. These expanded until the sky was overcast. I phoned to get a friend to video them but no luck. These were not any way normal.

“The average ice water per meter along the length of the contrail is 1.6 x 10^4 gms per meter, some three to four orders of magnitude greater than the water vapor released by typical jet aircraft, also similar to previously reported values.”
This FACT is what you cannot accept. Many research papers have discovered the same basic information since 1953 when contrails were first analyzed in depth. You say “There is no reason for a normally produced contrail to act like this, without some extra factor” and I am telling you the extra factor is SUPERSATURATION. You must have seen this word before. You just DON’T REALLY KNOW WHAT THIS IS. So study it. Study THE PHASES OF WATER. Use the advanced search exclusion process to find yourself some REAL TRUTH and not the lies you are accustomed to reading. You will discover SCIENCE and put away childish dreams.

why are you such an asshole? were you abused as a child? Look at the images from the 40’s of persistent contrails then look up! see the difference?
I am positive you do not know the effect I am writing about, as you are not addressing the topic.
I am professionally trained in thermodynamics, and am an adult. so you can eat your condescending attitude, shit it out and eat it again. I didn’t say I was mature. I went through some old videos, none really capture clearly what I have ONLY stated. And we must be very clear for you so you don’t dodge the point, yet again. I will post a video soon enough with your name on it, then please comment on how your non-belief in added particulate is responsible. There are doctors on record stating they treat the symptoms of exposure to these chemicals. They must be lying, ill educated morons also.

“There are doctors on record stating they treat the symptoms of exposure to these chemicals. They must be lying, ill educated morons also.”

How do you KNOW these symptoms are the result of “exposure to these chemicals”? Is that what the doctors actually stated? Were they actually a doctor, and not a fraud like Hildegarde Staninger?
What “linkage” is there here? Did someone say they saw a trail in the sky seven miles up?
If repeating hearsay and drummed-up uneducated witness testimony and the creepiness of people like Staninger doesn’t make you a lying, ill-educated moron, than I don’t know what will. Thanks for assuming that was what I was thinking. It saved me the effort.
“I am professionally trained in thermodynamics” yes, I heard you before. I don’t believe you were “trained” at all. Shown a book and videos, and asked questions, more like.
You don’t seem open enough to thinking to be educable. I obtained my training at the National Gas Turbine Establishment in its heyday, working on and designing modifications to gas turbines and test chambers.

I have my own empirical evidence of manufactured trails, relating them to you would be pointless. If Dr Hildegarde Staninger is such a moron, like me, why is the CDC conducting an investigation into Morgellon’s/unexplained dermopathy also? I guess they are full of morons too. Must be tough being so smart and trapped in that pathetic body! Well they say one is either smart or good looking, can’t have both!
I do not need to prove my education to you, but I am a refrigeration mechanic, energy transfer is a large part of the training. 5 years worth.
and needless to say top of my class. Your training should let you know that factors can be altered, there is ample proof to believe this effect is possible.

“One of your cohort, jesuslives57 went through this same argument.” And you call ME an asshole. JL57 and I haven’t ever exchanged more than a couple of dozen words. If you want to know who MY cohort is – it’s YOU. It’s a wonderful life…

“I have my own empirical evidence of manufactured trails, relating them to you would be pointless”
If empirical, it’s a first. Congratulations on your Nobel Prize.

“If Dr Hildegarde Staninger is such a moron, like me, why is the CDC conducting an investigation into Morgellon’s/unexplained dermopathy also?”
Because it is unexplained?

“9i guess they are full of morons too. Must be tough being so smart and trapped in that pathetic body! Well they say one is either smart or good looking, can’t have both!”
You must be REALLY good-looking! 🙂

“I do not need to prove my education to you, but I am a refrigeration mechanic, energy transfer is a large part of the training. 5 years worth.and needless to say top of my class.”
It’s a pity trusting the expertise and professionalism of thousands of atmospheric scientists wasn’t part of your curriculum. Perhaps if you don’t have it you cannot appreciate it.

“Your training should let you know that factors can be altered, there is ample proof to balieve this effect is possible.”
My training tells me persistent contrails exist, and things without any evidence for them need hard EVIDENCE before they are deemed to replace things which are KNOWN to exist.

If you had such evidence you would have rammed it down my throat, I’m sure. Here’s mine:
THE CLEAR INVISIBLE NATURE OF THE TRAIL “GAP” IS PROOF OF NO METALS BEING PRESENT.
NO ORGANIC MATERIALS CAN PASS THROUGH A FLAME WITHOUT COMBUSTING.
TURBOFAN ENGINES CAN PRODUCE AN ICE TRAIL 10,000 TIMES LARGER THAN THEIR ICE OF COMBUSTION.

Empirical: originating in, or based on, observation or experience. Does this mean something else to you? I gave you the smart/ugly thing, you always go the cheap’n’easy route?
I never claimed anything about a gap, typical for the angry rebuttal types is to lump all together, I suppose I think there is a problem with the water because rainbows appear in lawn sprinklers, like that dbootsthediva person. Well now you have gone from a blanket denier to a “waiter for proof”, baby steps. The nozzles are placed, not in the combustion, but out the plane body, there are plane mechanics on record stating there are 500 gallon tanks on these planes. There are patents on aerosol delivery systems, bought up by the US navy, that detail such systems.

empirical :originating in or based on observation or experience. Does this mean something else to you?
Hard evidence.

i gave you the smart/ugly thing, you always go the cheap’n’easy route?
I never claimed anything about a gap.

NO. I’m telling you the GAP proves the absence of metals.

Well now you have gone from a blanket denier to a “waiter for proof”, baby steps
It’s just my experience of waiting and being disappointed by the trite crap “revealed” to me..

the nozzles are placed, not in the combustion, but out the plane body, there are plane mechanics on record stating there are 500 gallon tanks on these planes. There are patents on aerosol delivery systems, bought up by the US navy, that detail such systems.
Apart from the fact that ANYONE could type up a shitstorm (and they do) – there’s NOTHING. The PTB have obviously had a total success there… Patents – go visit the Moon.

trusting the expertise and professionalism of thousands of atmospheric scientists
like the Canadian govt scientists that have had a gag order placed on them?
NO ORGANIC MATERIALS
who said anything about organic? The last decade has brought about monumental advances in polymers.

like the Canadian govt scientists that have had a gag order placed on them?

No. Like the REST OF THE WORLD for SIXTY YEARS.

who said anything about organic? The last decade has brought about monumental advances in polymers.

Polymers ARE organic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cass_Sunstein

That’s all very stupid. Perhaps I should apply, eh? There’s enough STUPID as there is.

NOT COMING

contrails-3

“If these are CONTRAILS, then WHY are they not coming from the engines” – THEY ARE*. It takes a SPLIT SECOND for jet exhausts to cool from 1100deg C to -40deg C. That can be up to 800 feet away at operational altitude. *Except in the case of aerodynamic trails and highly-supersaturated air.

“Contrails disappear within minutes” – NO. They can disappear in SECONDS in DRY AIR, or NOT DISAPPEAR AT ALL in SATURATED AIR, or ANYTHING IN-BETWEEN.

“some are indeed contrails, but lots of them are NOT!” – If you UNDERSTAND what I have just written then you NOW KNOW THIS STATEMENT TO BE UTTERLY WRONG.

NOT HEALTHY

fitness

They are indeed not healthy, but both are fitness itself compared with science-hating conspiracy fruitloops.

Volcanic action is twenty times more dangerous than aviation combustion, works 24/7, and doesn’t worry me either, because I know that Life air-conditions it. Fresh air itself was once volcanic effluent.

Something sensible to worry about would be the removal of forests and phytoplankton, but you don’t do sensible, do you?

forest

NOTHING

(The life’s work of dbootsthediva):

“‘secret’, ‘hidden in plain sight’ weather eng HAARP” – There’s NOTHING as HIDDEN as something which DOESN’T EXIST. HAARP is a radio establishment IN THE MIDDLE OF ALASKA – A QUARTER WAY ROUND THE GLOBE.

“In the UK it’s mainly used to create the depressing uniform dull grey sky which has now become accepted as standard ‘British weather'”FALSE. IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY – WELL, WAY BACK TO THE SIXTIES…

“But HAARP isn’t the only thing at work here” – IT ISN’T AT WORK HERE. IF IT WORKS AT ALL IT’S LINE-OF-SIGHT.

cloudbuster

“orgonite cloudbuster” – NOR IS THIS. THIS IS NOT SCIENCE BUT FAKE.

“‘mackerel sky’ clouds just materialising out of nowhere” – NO. SUNLIGHT IS ADDING ENERGY TO THE BOUNDARY LAYER AIR, WHICH RISING, CONDENSES OUT SOME OF ITS WATER VAPOR AS CLOUD. THE EXPRESSION “MACKEREL SKIES” IS CENTURIES OLD…

“getting it in May 2006” – AND BOY YOU GOT IT.

“makes HAARP effects more obvious” – YOUR LUNACY MORE OBVIOUS…

“formation of artificial clouds” – YEAH, JUST AROUND YOU…

“prevents the grey cloud layer forming completely” – IN THE WINDMILLS OF YOUR MIND…

“leaving white clouds in an obvious strange pattern” – LEAVING THEM THE WAY THEY WERE…

altocumulus

altocumulus

“There’s also a few chemtrails in the background” – OF COURSE!

“28 secs into it, did you catch a plasma EM field?” – YEP, MY $33 WEBCAM CAME WITH A CONVERSATION GENERATOR WHICH DOWNLOADS INTO PERFECT GIBBERISH

“58 secs Sensor Orb alert. and 1.01 too?” – SEE? GIBBER. GIBBER.

“Quantum Cryptography/clouds morph/smaller images/another image altogether” – GIBBER. GIBBER. GIBBER.

“tree leaves/pixels” – GIBBER. GIBBER.

“aerosol carbon coenzyme” – GIBBER “helps create” – A COSMETIC? “catalyst” – MAGIC SCIENCE WORD.

“chemtrail can expand instead of dissipating” – GIBBER!

“No stratus or cirrus cloud formations without the help of the synthetic plasma field” – ALL SINGING AND DANCING GIBBER!!!

wizard-of-oz

“We are not in Kansas anymore” DOROTHY “not real clouds” – ESSENTIALLY WRONG!

“ultrafine powders & transparent liquids of multi layered metallic silica oxides varieties, bacteria, and chemicals to create different catalysts for different cryptography effects”

magic-hat

BAGS OF MAGIC SCIENCE WORDS!

WAIT A MINUTE. CRYPTOGRAPHY IS THE WRITING OF CODES SUCH AS THE MORSE CODE AND THE DECRYPTION OF ENIGMA!

“ive seen chemtrails here in New Zealand & the exact same thing happens with the weather, what are they doing?” – I WILL DECRYPT THIS FOR YOU:  NOTHING.

NOTRAILS

Hi notrails,

The air in ANY clear blue sky ALWAYS contains WATER. It’s in the form of VAPOR. Water vapor is a CLEAR INVISIBLE GAS.

Reference to standard physical tables gives you the means to work out the ACTUAL amount of water present in a clear blue sky, and at a ground temperature of 23 deg C and a RH of 65% it works out that there’s 3,300 tons of INVISIBLE WATER VAPOR in the CLEAR air to the horizon from where you are standing.

In general, when you are looking at THE TROPOSPHERE with its blue sky with rising cumuli, it pays to remember there’s LITTLE DIFFERENCE IN WATER CONTENT between BLUE SKY and CLOUDS.

The STRATOSPHERE above ALSO contains water vapor. Its temperature just above the TROPOPAUSE is NEVER warmer than -40 deg C. Due to the INTENSE COLD and the THIN AIR, much less vapor can be held in the air, before it exhibits SATURATION or even SUPERSATURATION.

A passenger airplane at 35,000 ft and 550mph deposits its exhaust in the form of CO2 gas and ice crystals at, say,  50lb per mile. That’s about 25 lb of water per mile, laid as a “cirrus” cloud of intensely frozen ice crystals. The craft has a large wave vortex which acts as a “mixer” for the crystals and they are spread into that stratosphere’s layer.

If the RH of the layer is less than 100% then those crystals SUBLIME into water vapour, the trail DISAPPEARS, and THE LAYER’S RH RISES.

If the RH of the layer is 100%, the layer is said to be SATURATED, and the CONTRAIL PERSISTS INDEFINITELY.

If the RH of the layer is greater than 100%, the layer is said to be SUPERSATURATED, the CONTRAIL not only PERSISTS INDEFINITELY but also GAINS WEIGHT as water vapor freezes ONTO the contrail’s ice crystals. The HEAVY trail material increases its rate of descent (ice crystals are ALWAYS falling).

Now it should be OBVIOUS to you that REPEATED PASSAGES of AIRCRAFT through stratospheric layers INCREASE the RH of the layer to SATURATION, and WHEN that happens, TRAILS WILL PERSIST AND SPREAD TO FILL THE LAYER. BLUE SKIES WILL BE GONE…

SO – CHEMTRAILS ARE A FIGMENT OF YOUR IMAGINATION.

AND THEN YOU PROJECT UPON OTHERS YOUR CONFUSION, AND YOUR HATRED.

Thanks for the imaginatively-titled cloud pictures. Always gratefully received. Your land is less of a desert than Tenerife. In fact it is very beautiful.

hawaii

You’re a lucky man. Or could be…

NUTS (TO SOMEONE WHO BLOCKED ME)

nuts

I didn’t say you were nuts, did I? Check. Thanks for not censoring me, some have. For evidence, follow a civil jet with a quick light plane trailing a fine net & capture bottle. Analyse it yourself. I never found results like the ones claimed on my engine test bed.
The annual (24/7) volcanic action of Earth’s 1500 active land volcanoes outdoes Man’s 300 million tons of jet fuel by 2000%. Life has converted it into fresh air for at least 3 billion years. Worry about the forests and phytoplankton. Whoops…

OFFICIAL (VERSION)

Contrails can remain visible for very long periods of time with the lifetime a function of the temperature, humidity, winds, and aircraft exhaust characteristics.

Contrails can form many shapes as they are dispersed by horizontal and vertical wind shear.

Sunlight refracted or reflected from contrails can produce vibrant and eye-catching colors and patterns.

Observation and scientific analysis of contrails and their duration date back to at least 1953.

The National Airspace System of the United States is oriented in an east-west and north-south grid with aircraft flying at designated 2000 foot increments of elevation (1000 feet after the introduction of Reduced Vertical Separation Minima in 2002-2004).

Contrails formed by aircraft may appear to form a grid as the winds disperse the contrails.

More contrails are seen in recent years due to the growth in the civil aviation market.

OGRISH

lingering contrail is not the best description” – Oh, yes it is!

A contrail will remain visible for longer with different humidity and temperature but thinning and creating cloud cover?” – Supersaturated air THICKENS the trail so much it falls as PENDULES. You have seen them…. As a trail IS ICE it IS CIRRUS CLOUD. As for filling a stratospheric layer, that’s EASY, the WAVE VORTEX supplies the energy. Some of that energy is STILL THERE half an hour later…. If you knew ANYTHING at all about the atmosphere (which you don’t) you’d pipe down… As it is you’re loudmouthing away, and I can’t stop you.

haarp2

Read the patent holders comments about the multiple uses of H.A.A.R.P.” – It’s used to HEAT a line-of-sight AREA of the ionosphere. It is less effective than my microwave is for warming my tea. It’s a research establishment studying aspects of the near-vacuum in the ionosphere. It cannot be aimed directly at your arse unless you’re flying at 110,000 ft over Alaska…. and if you were, you wouldn’t feel a thing…. being a radio establishment it has strategic possibilities, but catalyzing clouds over Europe, for instance, is not one of them. It has the “beam focussing power” of Mr. Magoo.

mr_magoo

N.A.S.A.’s comments on ozone replacement” – Go like “stop air travel and your problems will disappear (until the next volcanic eruption)”.

U.S.A.F.’s fuel additives” – Boron hydride? Nitromethane? Pfft – a few fast fighters? Solid additives to fuels would be REALLY DANGEROUS to the planes. Liquid additives couldn’t include aluminum or barium for various technical reasons. BLOOD PRODUCTS are a JOKE – surely? *(Since this I realize you were reanimating the MYTH that there is Ethylene Dibromide in JP-8). Wrong!

world wide spray programme” – Unachievable. THE WORLD IS FIFTY TIMES THE AREA OF THE UNITED STATES!

German airforce admits to mass spraying“* – A MOMENTARY CHAFF RELEASE IS NOT “MASS SPRAYING”. How is your ability to be LOGICAL? *(Since then I have discovered that this was a fraudulent mis-translation of the original German. Vicious.)

U.S. sprays radar imaging materials over Afghanistan” – Pfft. Next can please….

reports from pilots and air traffic controllers” – EVERY ONE OF THEM SO FAR OUT OF CONTEXT AS TO BE A LIE. More fraud.

real events happening above us daily” – A million tons of combusted kerosine = a million tons of stratospheric ice, mostly sublimed to water vapour, is what is REALLY happening daily.

I do not deny alot of the footage and discussion on the net is ill-informed and plain wrong” – GOOD.

William Thomas’ analysis of this subject” – HAVEN’T SEEN IT. SHALL LOOK.

it is not as simple as you try to write it off as in your videos and comments” – OH, YES IT IS! My videos are MUSICAL. Shows how hard YOU research…

I can provide url’s to all this information” – Oh, God. Send them.

And a final note your formula is for carbonated water not soda pop” – Haha. True, but a damned sight closer than ANY chemtrail statement!

soda-syphon

Hahahahaha… …you all think you’re original and it’s the same old PAP! POP?

In return for wading through WT and your urls I demand you check out my blog.

There are at least SOME TRUE THINGS stated there…..

OUTSIDE IN

PAINT

paint

“aluminum, anthrax*, lupus*, fungus*, silver iodide*, barium, bacteria*, titanium” – Those marked * would be incinerated by a gas turbine. A turbofan’s exhaust is as STERILE as a hospital SURGERY. The rest you will find are COMMON INGREDIENTS OF HOUSEHOLD PAINT (Well, not the barium or silver)..

“the COMBINATION of pollens, auto fumes, and urban smog can cause severe auto-immune failure, asthma, and death in the young, weak, or elderly”

pollution

I’m quoting myself here. Didn’t you read it? HERE IS YOUR ANSWER!

PASSION

“Admire your passion” – that’s me – passionately pissed-off by brainless panic-mongering.

“prior to 1998 are extremely rare” – Cheap video cameras were. Persistent contrails WEREN’T.

“of military origin” – Military? THEY take pictures of EVERYTHING.

“trails are spewing directly from the plane” – EASILY HAPPENS in super-saturated air. You ought to thank your lucky stars when you see that, for it means THE AIR IS VERY CLEAN.

“FAA tells contrails appear a wing-span distance from back” – That’s a ROUGH GUIDE. That distance REALLY depends on the VELOCITY of the plane and the TEMPERATURE and HUMIDITY OF THE AMBIENT AIR.

“you consider temp as well, not only humidity” – Do you think I don’t know that?

“The avg temp easily estimated even from ground temp measurement” – NO IT IS NOT. It is a ROUGH GUIDE through the TROPOSPHERE and NO GUIDE AT ALL AFTER THE TROPOPAUSE. ABOVE THE TROPOPAUSE THE TEMPERATURE IS NEVER WARMER THAN -40 DEG C. IT CAN BE -80 DEG C.

“ground temp of 30 C or more it is hardly likely that a plane flying low enough 2 be visible by the naked eye could produce a normal contrail” – IF IT’S ABOVE THE TROPOPAUSE THAT WON’T BE A TRUE STATEMENT, WILL IT?

“let alone a lasting plume” – In SATURATED AIR in the STRATOSPHERE there is NO WAY those ICE CRYSTALS WILL DISAPPEAR. Sunlight REFLECTS OFF them. That is WHY they are WHITE.

PENITENT (The Longest Day II)

SweetiePie
Informative hub. I learned something new.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for responding, SweetiePie!

randomlight
Nice summation; well done.

Fabrizio
Hi Bard, good article. Yes, chemitrails are real but important is detect and differe them from the common contrails. Of course, the amount of metallic matter in them is a good way for understand they are not a simple condensation.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for posting, randomlight and Fabrizio!

Darol (cd4sunshine)
Very nicely put Bard although the small part about reference to “persistant contrails vs. Chemtrails” really makes no difference as the USAF is gonna say no matter what ya wannna callem, they have always been there and ain’t hurtin’ no one,,,,,RIGHT

Bard of Ely
I am sure you are right, Darol, but I put that in because I know Rosalind thought it was important and I was attempting to give as full a picture as possible!

shipsuperstore
Many a conspiracy at the top they will never tell us, thanks for the insight and I did see the show you referenced on Discovery. Good job.

Bard of Ely
Thank you! It was good that Discovery did a program on it and even though it didn’t really go very far it nevertheless was one of the first reports by the media to give any coverage to the subject!

Madhavi Bhatia
Dear Bard, this is a rather horrifying subject. I’ve never actually heard of this before. The only chemical trails that i”ve heard of are the ones behind jet planes and of course spills of pesticides and insecticides that are sprayed by planes on the american and russian farms. Would you please write a more encyclopedic article on this on the copper wiki. My friends and i would be extremely grateful. The site is http://www.copperwiki.org Do check out some of the articles on sunscreen and eco fibres and please do send feedback when and if you get the time. thanks

Bard of Ely
Thanks for posting, Mhadavi, and I agree it is a “horrifying subject” and this is perhaps why some people go into denial about it and say everything is OK and it’s just vapour trails. This puzzles other people who are alarmed by what they can see in the sky and what they have found out. And these trails and skies covered in the artificial clouds they make is a new occurrence. If you look at photos from around the world from over ten years back there are normal skies with blue skies and white clouds ot perhaps grey ones but never skies streaked with trails and skies covered in whitish haze from such trails. It just doesn’t add up! When I left the Uk in 2004 the sky wasn’t covered in trails but when I went back in 2007 it was! Something has changed! If you add in the admitted reports of military chaff then of course people will be concerned. Whatever is going on it has, as you can see here, spawned a whole new terminology and a movement of people. If I can find time I will submit an article for that site so thank you for the suggestion!

Life_of_Purpose1
Bard, Great post! I have been talking to people about chemtrails quite a bit. It is about awareness and getting others informed. Most people have not even a second thought to look up and see the obvious “writing in the sky”. They are getting better and better in making them look like nice, natural whispy clouds to fool the sheeple. We notice how there will be criss crosses all over the sky one day and the next couple, none. I wonder if we will ever know the truth, what they are, why, and how do they detirme where they spray. There have been many postulations of the ominous reasons to spray of which include keeping us from evolving spiritually and acheiving enlightenment. I find it an interesting speculation as most things in this world, especially instituted by the government, do carry this side effect. Looking forward to learning and sharing more…Namaste, Dre

The How To Hub
A little timeline – I am 31 years old and have grown up in Australia. As a teenager I used to see the trails and think they were cool, you know like the air force jets with the coloured smoke displays…..my perspective as an adult is ….HORROR. What kind of world are we going to leave our future generations?

Bard of Ely
Thanks for posting, Dre and Shaye! Dre, I have heard the points you have made but I thank you for posting them here for others to read. Shaye, I have a British friend who doesn’t accept that chemtrails are harmful but who thinks they are pretty. Personally I think, and a lot of people share this opinion, whether they are harmful or not, a sky with old-fashioned fluffy clouds that make ptictures in the sky for the mind’s eye is far superior aesthetically to a sky graffitied with lines and criss-crosses and finally a whitish haze of false cloud. And that is another part of it – weather forecasts nowadays often talk about haze and hazy conditions. We never used to have all this haze but had skies with clouds or without but not the mess that is so often there now. As Dre, has pointed out some days there is none of this and then the skies return to how they were meant to be.

Karen Ellis
We have them here in Oregon as well. It seems this is a world wide problem? On the days that chemtrails are being used, the planes criss-cross the sky and before you know it, instead of a beautiful blue-skyed day, you have complete overcast.

Bard of Ely
Yes, Karen, and the picture you describe is being reported over and over and over again and IF anyone manages to get any sort of response from anyone official they will say that what is being seen is normal and they are harmless contrails! How can it be harmless to cut out the light with such a cloud cover? Of course, it can’t! We never used to have skies like these! Thanks for posting!

The Bull
Bard, Wow…You have opened my eyes and mind at the same time… I live in the Northeast on the coast of the US…minutes from the Bush compound – Walkers point. The airspace is littered with intenational flights heading to Boston’s Logan and various NY hubs. We also maintain one of the largest US Airforce runways at Portsmouth, NH Pease Air base (only SAC refuling now). The resulting asthma, allergies, flu-like illness, respiratory and sinus problems, nose bleed, fatigue and depression, tinnitis, sight problems and inflammation of the eyes, dizziness, skin rashes, high blood pressure and pneumonia STATISTICS would be very interesting to calculate for this region. Do you have any ideas how I may find this information out statistically? The Bull

Bard of Ely
Thanks for posting, Bull! I don’t personally know how you’d get such answers but I would thank that someone at the chemtrailtrackingusa forum would and what’s more the members would welcome such an idea – there is often the call there for ways of doing something that produces scientific data that can be given to the authorities and the debunkers so they can be asked to explain it! In other words we need to be able to talk their language back at them. Please consider joining and posting there if only for the one thread. The link is at the bottom of my article.

rmr
Very informative! I have been reading about contrails for years, but I have never heard them referred to as chemtrails before. I have noticed, though, that many of them do seem to have a lot more hang time lately. I live relatively close to a major airport, and have noticed that, on some days, there are upwards of 100 contrails in the sky, while on others there are only a few.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for your feedback, rmr! You have a mystery there whether they are harmless or not! Debunkers of the subject say the trails only persist in certain atmospheric conditions to which my question is why did such conditions not exist until in the last decade or so in which chemtrails have been reported? There are two airports on this island and plenty of planes in and out but mostly no chemtrails, however, when I went back to Cardiff in Wales last year the skies were covered in trails daily as was the airport there and it didn’t used to be like that!

Lou Purplefairy
Great hub Steve, and as you well know a subject close to my heart as an active campaigner for the awarenes of persistent contrails (chemtrails). We have lots and lots of PC (persistent contrails) here in Devon UK, and most ppl do not bat an eyelid at them, till I alert them to the possibility of what they actually are and how to tell them apart from real contrails. Most ppl are surprised that this subject is not covered by the media, and the intelligent ones are concerned by its conspicuous abscence, as it it not even ridiculed as a hoax in the media. I have witness chembows (as you know) sun halos and a myriad of PC’s in various formations. The freak weather we have had in economically poor areas in recent times is confirmation for me that some sort of NWO plan to eradicate “the useless eater population” is in full swing. I still do my research and blog on the matter.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for the feedback, Lou, and yes, I know you know what is going on!

JazzRoc
You may believe that chemtrails are real, O Bard, but you are wrong. You are wrong, and you cannot prove you are right. Your “proof” is that “thousands of people say so”. These people that “say so” share many, and perhaps all, of the attributes of people that believe the Earth is flat, the Sun goes round the Earth, that God made Man “in his own image” (6,000 years ago!), and we CANNOT possibly have evolved from an ape-like creature five million years ago, that we are “imbued with a soul”, and if we “please God” we will “go to Heaven” after our body dies and rots. These people are DELUDED by their own ignorance and fear. They, on the whole, suffered through their educational period (personally I found it unpleasant even while top of the a-stream in a grammar school) and never learned to respect the opinions of people more able than they were to grasp essential scientific principles. Otherwise they would, of course, believe the word of atmospheric scientists who have for decades been telling these people that persistent contrails are a natural by-product of large-scale mass air transit.
The first queries as to why the sky turned white were made in the late fifties and early sixties, so the topic is NOT exactly a new one. Even before that collisions occurred between close-flying Flying Fortress bombers on 1000-bomber daylight bombing raids on Germany between 1943 and 1945 when they too turned the skies white with the exhausts from their 18-cylinder radial engines in particularly cold and humid conditions. If a million tons of kerosine are burned daily (yes!) in the stratosphere, which is thin and cold and easily humidified with relatively small amounts of water, then large areas of the sky are going to turn WHITE. This is the “white” of ice crystals – water! The rest is fanciful paranoia, with a small amount of LIES, DECEIT and FRAUD. For that, blame Carnicom and some ignorant and some shameless YouTubers. You should be ashamed of yourself. If you were better-educated, Bard, you would be. Your activity is harming society. I have amassed quite a lot of support literature at https://jazzroc.wordpress.com and invite your response…

Bard of Ely
Thanks for posting your opinions, Jazzroc, however, I am no further convinced by your arguments!

JazzRoc
Perhaps after all you REALLY ought to read my wordpress blog. In it you will find confirmation of everything I have mentioned above, and directly-attributable quotes from specialist atmospheric scientists, graphs, details and photographs of almost all relevant material, specific proofs of chemtrailers’ fraudulent claims and blow-by-blow debunks of EVERY chemtrail claim. What more can one do, when confronted by a deluded and harmful person who is determined in his ignorance to do further harm? Well, advise you NOT to visit the US, I suppose. THERE they have the Patriot Act (which is not my idea of nice legislation!) What you are doing falls within the parameters of that act, and newly-trained and less sympathetic people there might well take it upon themselves to “educate” you, seeing as you are obviously determined never to do the job yourself.
Even in a British society noted for its tolerance of stupidity you might find that at some time in the near future (these are changing times!) your ignorant disregard of scientific principles, technocratic excellence and social decency will cause you to fall foul of the law. Don’t ever say I didn’t warn you…

Bard of Ely
JazzRoc, I have read your blog, and as it happens it is now probably being read by some freemasons – as I saw earlier that one has left a link to it and a recommendation in the Universal Freemason’s message board of which I am a member. I have told you that I don’t agree with you but you do not appear to be able to agree to disagree but become insulting and threatening in tone (warning me) and how you expect anyone to want to hear from you when you adopt these ways I really don’t know. However, as I have also told you, I don’t believe that this subject should all be a one-sided debate of chemtrail believers agreeing with chemtrailbelievers and on the other side the scientific debunkers all debunking – I would suggest that both sides have much to learn but they cannot do so if stuck viewpoints are held! You happen to believe in science and have a lot of faith in it and I don’t simple as that. You don’t believe in God and I do!
I happen to agree with you that there are people who are ill and blaming chemtrails may not be ill from chemtrails but from other sources. I also agree with you that the crosses are in completely different levels of the sky and only look like crosses from down below. You see I don’t totally disagree with you but on the other hand I am convinced that chemtrails are very real and that weather modification is one definite use they are being put to, but I have told you that before.
You call people “uneducated” but what does that mean? It means that they don’t happen to agree with the official version of things perhaps – I certainly don’t! Scientists can and do lie and if you want an example, fluoride is one that springs to mind and mercury amalgam being another! There are many people active in the opposition to chemtrails who are educated to university standard eg Dr Stephen McKay whom I have mentioned in the article. I happen to have a BA degree, a diploma in media, 5 A-levels and 6 O-levels and that counts as educated by most people’s standards. Education though is often indoctrination and manipulation turning out people to carry on the system and brainwashed to believe what they are told not to think for themselves!

JazzRoc
“it is now probably being read by some freemasons” – what a horrible thought! “Universal Freemason’s message board of which I am a member” – what, another horrible thought! “insulting and threatening in tone” – without a doubt you are a fool, for you are still ever-ready to accept baseless arguments and reject the remorseless logic of mine. I advised you not to visit the US, nor Britain after 2012. Personally I’ll admit to finding it difficult to be pleasant to someone like you who is practically as dangerous as a bomb-wielding terrorist with your spreading of lies and fear. I regard you now exactly the way I regard arms dealers. You are living in a safe spot and a safe era where your wickedness is going unpunished, but that won’t last for ever. “you expect anyone to want to hear from you” – I certainly won’t lie to gain plausibility like the people YOU believe. “both sides have much to learn” – Science and the truth of Science is not a democracy. Only ONE side is utterly ignorant in this case, and it’s YOURS. You have learnt nothing and are telling lies as a consequence. “You happen to believe in science and have a lot of faith in it” – I put no FAITH in Science. That’s like putting FAITH in Mathematics. Is one FAITHFUL to LOGIC, or merely LOGICAL? “You don’t believe in God and I do!” – Which God is this? The jealous one? The one who made the Universe in six days six thousand years ago? “I am convinced that chemtrails are very real” – As real as your god, santa claus, and the tooth fairy. “weather modification is one definite use they are being put to” – Sure thing. The three million four hundred thousand tons of barium required to provide a mono-molecular coating over the whole Earth would only take eighty-five thousand tanker sorties using one and a half million tons of fuel. And, of course, next week, you’d have to repeat it, etc.
“You call people “uneducated” but what does that mean?” – It means believing “weather modification is one definite use they are being put to”. “Educated” is what I have just demonstrated to you: the ready use of mathematics and a true knowledge of the properties of the Earth to show you just what foolishness you speak. “I happen to have a BA degree, a diploma in media, 5 A-levels and 6 O-levels and that counts as educated by most people’s standards” – Hmm. And I’ve seen those standards fall year after year. By my standards you are DIM. If I were as dim as you are I’d keep my stupid mouth shut. It seems you are too dim to understand how dim you are. That IS a shame… “believe what they are told, not to think for themselves” – How ironic! Shine a light on that…ah, but your batteries are low, and your light bulb glows a faint orange… lacking scientific understanding, you cannot see how misled you have been, and how misleading and dangerous you now are.

Bard of Ely
It appears from all that that we are no longer friends seeing as you keep on insulting me and are so bigoted in your views. You do not allow others freedom of thought and opinion and are another form of the thought police. Yes, I do believe people like David Icke and Clifford Carnicom whom you condemn. I have tried to present a balance of views here by letting you have your say and included them in the article above but it clearly isn’t working and maybe this is why all the chemtrail sites block you?
The Freemason who has posted your link found it here where you posted it and that is freedom of information as it should be! Seeing as you think so lowly of me now what do you make of Beck who has released a new song called Chemtrails? I applaud him for putting the subject in the mainstream world of pop music!

Eric Graudins
I’ve never heard of chemtrails. Thanks for writing this hub. JazzRoc – If your case is correct, you’ve considerably weakened it by the way you have chosen to argue your point here.

Bard of Ely
Hi Eric! Thanks for posting!

JazzRoc
Eric, my case is correct. If I were arguing with someone who simply misunderstood contrails I might be more polite, but there is more to it than that. You would do well to leaf through https://jazzroc.wordpress.com
Bard: “we are no longer friends” – that’s as it should be. You won’t find arms dealers in my list of friends either. “you keep on insulting me” – I keep on describing you as an ignorant person who is way above your head, and causing harm within our society by insisting that people you do not know are deliberately poisoning the whole of our society, using baseless assertions and faulty reasoning. You’ve GOT to be stupid, because I cannot see you as THAT intelligent and malevolent. “so bigoted in your views” – I see you’ve decided I’m not “programmed” (that’s the usual one) so I must be simply bigoted. It seems to me that you consider the understanding of science to be a form of bigotry. Well, we live in a scientific and technological world, and here we are using that very technology to conduct this argument. You are arguing with a man who has tested jet engines in their test beds, helped in the construction of the supersonic wind tunnel used to test the Concord’s engines, helped in the construction of the nuclear decanning plant in Windscale, helped in the construction of the world’s first ethernet network, and the world’s first modern electric city car. (And many other things, but that’s by-the-by). I know exactly how gas turbines work and exactly how their exhausts work in the stratosphere, and exactly how the stratosphere functions from my personal work experience. This isn’t a “view”. I can BUILD these things.
You turn up with your “fear of science”, read a whole bunch of foolish and baseless and totally inaccurate assumptions in a scientific field you don’t understand at all, and accuse INNOCENTS of attempted GENOCIDE. Who is the BIGOT here?
“You do not allow others freedom of thought and opinion” – This IS “freedom of thought and opinion”. How can your statement be correct? “are another form of the thought police” – Really! “I have tried to present a balance of views” – We aren’t talking about a “balance of views”. Science is not a “balance of views”. You’re either CORRECT or WRONG. “it clearly isn’t working” – It’s working fine from my perspective. You are doing EVIL and I’m trying to prevent you, albeit unsuccessfully so far. I’m trying to sting you into some feeling of remorse for what you are doing, and hoping that you might, after all, educate yourself out of your delusion.
I’m also showing others that this ludicrous topic is opposed by scientists and other educated people. It is we who are doing things in this society, we who provide the wealth and power for travel and information systems (like this one) to the benefit of everyone. We have been able to do this by years of poorly-paid study, experiment and practice. We are professionals and deserve respect for our abilities and achievements – not this ignorant and shocking diatribe to which we are subjected.
In 1981, as our small team of electronics engineers clustered around an oscilloscope in a Wood Green laboratory which was demonstrating for the first time in the world that it was possible to send information down a wire at a rate of a hundred megabits per second (and we knew we were witnessing the start of a world revolution in information), nothing would have led me to believe that twenty-seven years later I would find myself using this fabulous system to conduct arguments about contrails with dumbed-down and deluded pseudo-scientists. How IRONIC!

Bard of Ely
“I’m trying to sting you into some feeling of remorse for what you are doing, and hoping that you might, after all, educate yourself out of your delusion.” – You are trying to tell me what to do and how to think and no one has the right to do that to anyone else! Do you send your insulting opinions to all the well known authors/speakers who believe and talk about chemtrails or do you only post your one-sided opinion and rudeness on the sites of people like me and those who post chemtrail videos? And if you feel that America and the UK would find my opinions illegal, then if you are right then it only goes to show that these countries are fascist non-democratic police states, which many believe anyway.
When we first met I thought we could get on well but clearly I was wrong. I do not like arguments and this is what this is. We had a big falling out before in which I deleted you at Myspace and swore and you have detailed that in your blog. I am not going to react with anger that way this time but as you admit here we are no longer friends I will delete you at Myspace. If Kingfisher is ever a money-making success I would see that you got your share. It seems that is all we share. I am not surprised that people at YouTube and chemtrail sites complain about you if this is an example of how you act. It is not a debate about a subject but a rude verbal assault by you who will not tolerate others having their beliefs or opinions or to post these in public
.

Eric Graudins
How timely. Tim Flannery, one of Australia’s top scientists has proposed that Global Warning could be slowed by injecting sulphur into the top levels of the atmosphere. He says that it could be put there by mixing it with jet fuel. This would be called “Global Dimming”.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for the link, Eric! Yes, I saw the news on this proposed insanity at Alex Jones’ site.

Debbie Peace love
Hi Bard Are you sure that Jazzroc isn’t a fox news presenter because he sure does sound like one to me. When they lose their arguments they resort to petty playgrond name calling and insults. Because they have lost the debate and cannot bring an intelligent debate to the table.
As you are aware I take a keen interest in chemtrails. Anyone who tells me they do not exist had better open their eyes and look up to the sky! You would have to be blind not to see them. Over here in the UK they make pretty pictures of chemtrails. We get the noughts and crosses obviously pilots having a game of tic tac toe. Well they have to dump whatever their dumping so they may of well have some fun. We get circles, loads of pretty pictures over here. Does not look to me as if they are planes with people on board and places to go! Why are the planes that are chemtrailing PLAIN White with NO markings! Planes usually advertise who they are up in the skies.
Why has there been a huge increase in breathing problems? Considering less people smoke. Also this new phenomenia Morgellons? Doctors are asking this question too. Also this may have something to do with the honeybee’s demise too.
Why does the mainstream media keep silent about chemtrials. If they were ordinary contrails I am sure we would have had something on the media by now trying to debunk the “Chemtrail Theorists” However, their silence is deafening. Also as many people have noticed our weather is fine until the planes come and low and behold we have rain! Oh I suppose its all coincidence. I am sorry but there are too many “Coincidences” concerning chemtrails.
Why is jazzroc so angry? If he disagrees with you on chemtrails then that is his prerogative. However, to call you all the names he has called you shows he has something to fear. I wish jazzroc could give us some facts and figures to why you are wrong because he proves nothing. Yes I understand he worked on engines big bloody deal! does not prove a thing!
IF you don’t want to believe what is right in front of your eyes. Then that is up to you. However, the best way to hide something is to put it in full view. When someone throws nasty insults and name calling. Especially to someone who is very well read on his subject. The insult thrower is shown to be what he is. A fool.

Bard of Ely
Debbie, thank you very much for posting and your support on this! To be fair to Jazzroc, though he doesn’t extend much fairness to me, he does provide a lot of info in his blog, which he has provided the link for and is worth reading, however, it doesn’t satisfy me or put my worries to rest on the subject, as I have already pointed out. It is a shame that it appears that Jazzroc has got himself excluded from sites where he could be hearing in detail from people living with illnesses they attribute to chemtrails and reports of daily coverage of their skies like get reported at chemtrailtrackingusa group for example. However, it seems that he doesn’t want to listen to what others say but just believes he is right so they must be wrong and then he wishes to impose his views on them, which I have called a bigoted approach. When they fail to accept what he says he does what he has done to me – he becomes very rude, threatening and insulting.
I think the point you raise on the media silence is a very valid one. Jazzroc would probably say the media cannot report on something that doesn’t exist but I would say the media has reported in great detail on things that don’t exist such as the weapons of mass destruction that were never found and other government lies. And if there is nothing to fear from the chemtrails then why doesn’t the media get someone who can explain it to do so? Why doesn’t Jazzroc volunteer instead of carrying on his barrage of insults and debunking posts? I would have thought the media could call upon scientific ‘experts’ to explain the matter but they do not do so! Maybe Beck’s song Chemtrails will bring the subject into the public mainstream arena where it belongs. According to Wikipedia, his song has been played on BBC R1, which maybe the first time the BBC has used the word chemtrails. I searched their site long ago and it isn’t there, although contrails are and defined as harmless
.

JazzRoc
Debbie Peace Love: “Are you sure that Jazzroc isn’t a fox news presenter” – I’m a retired engineer living fifteen miles away from the Bard in Tenerife. Are you sure you aren’t being abusive here? “open their eyes and look up to the sky” – and you’ll see contrails. If you look at the sky you’ll see the Sun go round the Earth. Now, DOES the Sun go round the Earth? “Does not look to me as if they are planes with people on board and places to go!” – You can tell all that from seven miles beneath? You should get a job in Air Traffic Control. They need you! “Why are the planes that are chemtrailing PLAIN White with NO markings” – Your first unwittingly ignorant question. It’s a physical phenomenon called “blue light scattering”. Educate yourself. Try WIKI. “Why has there been a huge increase in breathing problems considering less people smoke?” – Because there has been a huge increase in arable farming, with new crops with new pollens, industry is still increasing using exotic materials with dangerous dusts when cutting and grinding without adequate air filtration, because urban photochemical smogs are still increasing, and finally because power stations are burning less safe materials as the world’s oil supplies dwindle. The Western diet of over-processed foods with too much meat and too little fruit, coupled with high-stress levels and poor exercise regimens and contaminated water supplies doesn’t help at all. Overall, this is an already complex intermix of factors by itself, requiring a massive statistical effort to sort out – before you come along with IMAGINARY ills. “Also this new phenomenia Morgellons? Doctors are asking this question too?” – Look it up in WIKI. In Science as a whole, FACTS are established using DUPLICATION of results and PEER REVIEW of research. This HASN’T HAPPENED WITH MORGELLONS’ CLAIMS. Ergo – it’s NOT Science and NOT TRUE. “Also this may have something to do with the honeybee’s demise too.” – May it? See above. You must remember that scientists get famous for discovering things, so the pressures are there to make these discoveries. See above. “Why does the mainstream media keep silent about chemtrials?” – They have tried it on, burnt their fingers, and won’t do it again! “Also as many people have noticed our weather is fine until the planes come and low and behold we have rain!” – Or perhaps, the humid air that creates the contrails eventually causes rain? “Oh I suppose its all coincidence. I am sorry but there are too many “Coincidences” concerning chemtrails.” – There are too many “coincidences” in the minds of those that are deluded!
“Why is jazzroc so angry?” – I should cheer when ignorant “Chicken Littles” accuse innocent people of attempted mass murder, should I? “to call you all the names he has called you shows he has something to fear.” – Of course I have something to fear! STUPIDITY is a DANGEROUS thing in a technological world! “I wish jazzroc could give us some facts and figures to why you are wrong because he proves nothing.” – I doubt whether you could appreciate proof if you met it. You need a modicum of scientific understanding which you’ve already demonstrated you don’t have. However, there’s always WIKI and my blog “Yes I understand he worked on engines big bloody deal! does not prove a thing!” – A bit more than that, dear. I’m a scientist. And an artist. And a musician. “IF you don’t want to believe what is right in front of your eyes. Then that is up to you. However, the best way to hide something is to put it in full view.” – The sun – does it ACTUALLY go round the earth? “When someone throws nasty insults and name calling.” – They need to be STOPPED! Your hypocrisy is showing! Or hadn’t you noticed that CHEMTRAILS insult hard-working, decent professional people (and anyone else who has a modicum of commonsense)? “Especially to someone who is very well read on his subject. The insult thrower is shown to be what he is. A fool.” – All that glitters is not gold. You may read, but you patently do not understand. A fool is what YOU are.
Bard: “it doesn’t satisfy me or put my worries to rest on the subject” – You demand to be spoon-fed scientific understanding, but it doesn’t come that way. You must study for years for such understanding to arrive. If you DO NOT HAVE this understanding, you will NEVER be satisfied. In the interim, perhaps you could moderate your pseudo-scientific assertions….
“he could be hearing in detail from people living with illnesses they attribute to chemtrails – it seems that he doesn’t want to listen to what others say” – I thought it was I that was the insulting person. I have read what people have said, and it is obvious that there is no direct link. We ALL breathe in a mass of dusts, pollens, viruses and bacteria with every breath we take. Our bodies have a tolerance for doing this which has been EARNED by the deaths of countless millions of our predecessors over four billion years.
“I have called a bigoted approach” – The correct approach to YOUR “chemtrail” bigotry.
“he becomes very rude, threatening and insulting” – How is it that you continually forget the nature of your claim? Why can’t you see that you ARE what you claim ME to be?
“why doesn’t the media get someone who can explain it to do so?” – Because it is too difficult and boring a job for them (they would LOSE ratings)!
“the media could call upon scientific ‘experts’ to explain the matter” – I am such an expert. How successful am I?
“contrails are defined as harmless” – And of course they are. It is YOUR BEHAVIOUR that is harmful.

Bard of Ely
Jazzroc, I will let Debbie reply to you here if she so wishes. I would ask you this: if what you say are harmless contrails and harmless cloud cover resulting from them cut out the sunlight getting through do you not think it is likely to affect bee navigational ability when it has been established by SETI that sunlight is the main navigation tool for the insects? Please see: http://www.setiai.com/archives/000064.html So whether its water vapor converted to ice or toxic particles the result is surely the same – less light gets through. This can be clearly seen when sun halos form as they do now we have these trails so often in the sky!

JazzRoc
Really, Bard, I wonder what happens when you address yourself to read something! I could answer your question from my internal understanding, but just in case there was a built-in trick I addressed myself to the text in question, and found it answered your question completely!
“if what you say are harmless contrails and harmless cloud cover resulting from them cut(ting) out the sunlight getting through do you not think it is likely to affect bee navigational ability when it has been established by SETI that sunlight is the main navigation tool for the insects?” NO. Like all navigating animals on Earth, bees are NOT reliant on the visible Sun for navigation. Any such creatures that were SOLELY reliant upon the Sun would have been rendered extinct by the first large volcanic outburst or cometary impact than obscured the Sun for a sufficiently large period. And there been quite a few of these over the preceding 500,000,000 years. Bees sense the Sun, polarized light, landscape features, magnetic fields, and use two techniques of distance measurement (the latter one “optical flow” is new to me, but entirely unsurprising). What follows is a direct quote from the article: “All of these senses are redundant. That is to say, remove any one of them and the bee will probably still be able to navigate without problems. When the sun is obscured by clouds or trees, but patches of blue sky are still visible, the honey bee is able to use polarized light as a backup navigation system. The light coming directly from the sun is unpolarised. Some of this sunlight, however, is scattered by air molecules and a pattern of polarized light is set up in the sky. This pattern consists of a roughly circular set of gradients centered around the sun. The polarization is at its most intense at a 90′ angle from the sun. By detecting the polarization angle bees are able to infer the location of the sun. Exactly how they manage to do this is still unknown.”
Did you actually READ this? It ANSWERS the question you put to me! Do you know what “redundant” means in this context?
“So whether it’s water vapour converted to ice or toxic particles the result is surely the same – less light gets through.” – Here you once again demonstrate your scientific ignorance. “Toxic particles” cannot flow through the gas-turbine injectors. Injectors are hardened steel precision-ground tubes with very small internal diameters. Flow-control valves also clog if fine solids pass through them. In fact, they must both be protected by a high-capacity low-micron filter, which, of course, would stop solids. DUSTS PUT OUT ENGINES. Passenger aircraft are built down to a price by civilian businesses. Their wings contain spars, tanks and control equipment. They are built to very tight tolerances and riveted or glued down firmly. They do not have “empty spaces” and “extra pumps and nozzles” built into them for CHEMICAL ATTACK.
“Less light gets through” – It has been demonstrated by two different scientists using two different techniques in two different parts of the Earth that incident sunlight falling on the earth has been reduced by at least 15% over the last forty years. It is attributed to the industrial revolution, not just in the west, but in the middle and far east – it’s the consequence of COMBUSTION IN GENERAL. It is known that the contribution of air travel is 3% of this.
“This can be clearly seen when sun halos form as they do now we have these trails so often in the sky!” – The Sun has formed halos in the Earth’s stratosphere for four-and-a half billion years. The ice crystals that form such a halo are PURE. Any more than the single nucleating molecule at its centre (which every water droplet or ice crystal needs to form at all) and crystal formation is interfered with, and the halo effect disappears also.
You should know this, Steve, as we FREQUENTLY see halo effects round both Sun and Moon here, but NEVER when the KALIMA dust is in the sky. Hadn’t you noticed?

Bard of Ely
Yes, I know what redundant means but was thinking that if sunlight is the main tool then this could be what has messed them up and I note that they are OK here where we do not get many trails or blanket coverage with artificial cloud. Back in the UK where I went I saw trails and white cloud covering large areas made by these trails and the bees have nearly vanished so I joined the dots.
You make an excellent point about the halos and I know that they are dependent on water vapor so dust (or particles) should not produce this effect. I have to admit what you say makes sense to me on that.
If solid particles cannot go through the engines, which makes sense to me too, how did Teller’s sunscreen proposal work or this new madness by Prof Flannery of wanting to use sulfur? To my knowledge both aluminum (Teller) and sulfur (Flannery) are solids.
I assume that these substances would be sprayed from tanks with nozzles etc that you say are not in passenger planes but whilst that may well be the case, what about military planes? Surely they can have these adaptations?

JazzRoc
“I know what redundant means but was thinking that if sunlight is the main tool” – and there’s your paradox – “redundant” means “if an element is removed, the function of the remainder persists”.
“blanket coverage with artificial cloud” – All these clouds are cirrus. In supersaturated air the ice crystals of cirrus clouds, whether natural or man-made contrails, will gain weight and fall until they become diffuse clouds of water droplets (stratus) or if they reach the ground – fog. This fog, whatever its origination, is practically pure water. The impurities (and we’re talking fractions of a percent here) will be soot (from a gas turbine) or aluminum silicate (from the land) or methyl sulfide (from the sea). NONE of these will poison bees. The most likely killer of bees is a virus. The second most likely killer is a bacterium. The third most likely is a fungus. The fourth most likely is another strain of bees. Use your commonsense. Cities and industrial landscapes occupy about 2% of the Earth’s surface area – there may be cumulative effects for which they share a worldwide responsibility, like increasing proportions of carbon and sulfur dioxides in the air, but aircraft have only a 3% share in this. It is more likely that Nature itself is killing the bees.
It is very unfortunate (but obviously true) that these bee enemies are also arranged in the order of being the most difficult to discover. You have to remember (if you ever knew) that due to the incredible scales involved, finding a specific lethal bacterium on a bee might be like finding a single unknown person in a city, and that finding a single lethal virus on a bee (it might be INSIDE a bacterium!) might be like finding a single unique person on Earth – namely VERY much harder than finding a needle in a haystack – in fact well-nigh impossible.
“I joined the dots” – but only the dots you could see…”how did Teller’s sunscreen proposal work or this new madness by Prof Flannery of wanting to use sulfur” – Teller’s proposal was never answered. Flannery’s was to use rockets, but this engineer can tell you now that the whole proposal was flaky, and very much more likely to do harm than good. After all, what is acid rain? (Er – sulfur dioxide meets water – makes sulfuric acid!) How good is THAT for trees? “To my knowledge both aluminum (Teller) and sulphur (Flannery) are solids” – It isn’t impossible to turn both into organic liquids. Sulfur is fairly easy, aluminum difficult and expensive. (Barium is much more difficult and is so dense and reactive that specially-lined tanks and mechanical stirrers would be required!)
However on the scale of the Earth you can forget it. I’ve told you already that a single shot of barium for the Earth would require 3.4 million tons. That’s for a single pass… Can you envisage the US (and who else could it be?) shelling up for 85,000 KC105 tanker flights on a weekly basis, when its economy is about to go down the tubes? The whole idea is ridiculous. The surface area of the Earth is fifty times larger than the United States.
“what about military planes?” – It’s your best argument, but doesn’t pan out when you consider the logistics. See above.
You say you have read my blog. I can tell you’re not telling me the truth, for this is thoroughly answered there, and here I’m forced to repeat myself.
As I have said before, Steve, you cannot defeat me using scientific argument, because I know the science involved. If you really get down to basics (and of course you can’t!) I would fight you all the way and still end up the winner.
Your side knows this and has found other ways to defeat me – by blocking, by corruption, by fraud, by lying. But never by science. Blocking and corruption are beyond my powers to overcome, but occasionally I have defeated fraud. And lies are easy to deal with.
What I would like for you to do (apart from stopping making all these false assertions!) is come up with questions which really challenge me, and not questions which any book on atmospheric physics or topical science programme can answer.
And here is one for you. In my blog there is a link to a fascinating British invention which provides a safe, easy, cheap and reversible method of controlling and reducing Global Warming. What is it?

Bard of Ely
Tony, I have had a big realisation and not sure how I missed this apart from by association – I saw trails and white hazy skies and sun halos and my logic said the halos were caused by what was in the trails. However, because I was believing the trails were bad I was assuming the halos had to be too and had read how they are a sign in the Hopi system of the end of this system which added to my belief they are bad. But in doing this I was failing to see something I know – that halos form when there is water vapour, not when there is dust or particles. Therefore, looking at this now it means that the white trails and white artificial cloud cover would appear to be, as you and other non CT-believers have said, water vapour turning to ice crystals! This means that “chembows” would also be made of water. This means a lot that I have been believing was wrong!

fant 169

JazzRoc
Crumbs, Steve. Answers like this REALLY pull the rug out from under my feet! I am so accustomed to dogged argument that I don’t really know now what to say. 🙂 Except, of course, that there is much more to this than what we have covered so far, and even if “chemtrails” don’t exist, then for sure most ills suffered by both Man and Nature are STILL down to Man!
My point all the way through my “campaign” against “chemtrails” is that WHILE “chemtrails” are the focus of attention, the REAL problems are NOT ADDRESSED.

Namely, people ARE suffering from lung and skin allergic reactions, and possibly dying. These people will be the young, the old, the poor, and people who have already been weakened by some other disease. Not having “media share”, they can slip away without causing a stir or attracting attention. Awful. And I’m fairly sure that’s happening, not from any particular facts I possess (except perhaps my own intense allergy to Britain’s summer months!), but from a half-century of experience in the ways of the world.
I have watched the quality of Britain’s air, water, and food drop decade by decade. And the quality of life! The fuddy-duddy “Empah” values, stiff-upper-lip, reserve, and artificial politeness PRESERVED a life quality we have LOST. Lack of stress! Peace!
I’m also concerned about CARS. In the sixties the Conservative transport minister Dr. Beeching removed half our rail network. This rail network was a web of railway that reached to every town and virtually every village in the country. It was a fabulous real estate asset because it was JOINED UP, and could hence be converted – perhaps into a clean and efficient tramway, or a road, or a canal, or an information highway. Or maybe left as part of a modern automatic railway. Well, once broken up and flogged off as packets of land no longer joined up, that which cost the Victorians SO much trouble was cast to the wind…
In the seventies there was the Oil Crisis, when the price of oil tripled overnight. “Now” I thought “there is bound to be a drive towards light and efficient people movers!” What did we build? 4 by 4’s, juggernauts as big and heavy as the monsters built in the US during the fifties! The SUPERMARKET “juggernauts” drove across our valleys in the eighties, removing trees and hedges and small-holdings in their factory-farming “techno-park” drive to produce consistently-sized, brightly-coloured, poisoned, tasteless “vegetable” (or “animal”) pap, leaving in their wake air filled with herbicides, pesticides, and pollens, and sordid concentration camps of bird and animal suffering. And then the cars. Without a decent railway or bus system or information system we were forced into cars. (Not you, Steve, I know.) Thousands of cars. MILLIONS of cars. On occasion the M25 was a stationary six-lane CAR PARK (with all engines running) for a HUNDRED MILES. What in God’s Name sort of LUNACY is THAT? Cars, poisoned air, poisoned water, denatured food, the mass-torture of birds and animals. Rudeness in public. Temporary and demeaning employment. Fraud in Banking and Insurance. Mortgage and Equity crises. Lying politicians. Foreign war. STRESS… BRITAIN!
Chemtrails are simply (apart from their nonexistence) SURPLUS TO REQUIREMENT.
The anti-GW invention is the salt-spray trimaran of Dr. Stephen Salter. Apart from turning the skies of the southern Atlantic, Pacific, and Indian oceans somewhat leaden (and reducing the violence of storms in the area, and providing refuge for shipwrecked sailors) these devices do no harm whatsoever. Only five hundred of them are needed, and they can be switched off overnight if that were necessary.

Bard of Ely
Tony, please see the update I have added. I can admit I was wrong about a lot of it and felt I should make a public statement here explaining my reasoning. Thank you, because in the course of this I have understood how I was ignoring facts or overriding them due to my belief in the basic chemtrail conspiracy and my mistrust in scientists and official authorities. I would think that has happened with many of the other people who haven’t given you a chance or really read all you have had to say!

JazzRoc
“This means a lot that I have been believing was wrong!” – Steve, that was a gracious (and almost unique!) apology which temporarily took my breath away. It is unusual for a “chemtrail” adherent to back down over anything. The only previous instance I can recall was – you – about a year ago. Yet, after that, you soon got into full swing again. So may we look at your phrase “a lot that I have been believing” and pick it apart a little? Can you now be believing that yes, there ARE poisons being dispensed, but they DON’T make white lines in the sky? Perhaps you now believe that no, they CAN’T be passenger planes, but they CAN be military KC105 tankers which are NOT laying visible trails? Invisible trails of WHAT might these be? Do you know how many KC105s there are – compared with the number required to carry out Edward Teller’s proposal? (ET – the original “Strangelove”!) NOT ENOUGH. Not enough tankers, not enough fuel, not enough barium.
Did you notice the satellite image of the whole of the North Atlantic Ocean in my blog that showed contrails as a grid of white lines concentrated ONLY over the middle of the ocean (where there was a huge north-south cold front!) with virtually no contrails over the land anywhere? If they were “spraying”, WHY would that occur? Did you see the “chemtrailer” version of a (on-off) “gap” in a contrail that was patently photoshopped into existence? Did you see the Sciechimiche video claiming to be the inside of a “spraying” aircraft which was “fabricated” from a photo of the interior of the Boeing 777 Long Range Prototype, which at the time contained interconnected barrels of water (in place of the seating) for directly testing the consequences of varying its centre of gravity?
I hope you COMPLETELY understand that there is NOT A SINGLE WORD OF TRUTH in ANY PART of the “chemtrail conspiracy”, and that some of the “claimants” are NOT DELUDED but actively FRAUDULENT. And “Geo-engineering” is not necessarily a dirty word…
Steve, I looked at your stop press, and it warmed my heart to see it. But it is an afterword in your Hub entitled “Are Chemtrails Real, and Contrails a Con?”, so I suppose the end results of this episode may still be deleterious, and a distraction from solving our true difficulties. I hope you will soon return to your laudable activities in the fields and woods of permaculture, wildlife, wild foods, conservation and Nature.

Bard of Ely
I will have a look at that video now! I do not claim to know how many planes the miltary has or where they hold them. I have seen the “inside a tanker” video you refer to and am well aware of the reality of that episode having been caught up in it personally online. I read a lot of the conspiracy authors and watch their lectures and the majority have included chemtrails as a reality and I find it hard to believe they are all knowingly lying, especially when I know that much of the other material covered is true. So I have to conclude they blind themselves as I have done. I have taken down my STOP CHEMTRAILS banners at Myspace because they show trails which you have convinced me are water vapour and until anyone can prove anything to the contrary I am as of now not promoting CTs as a reality. In fact when I have the time I will do a rewrite of what I have posted above here probably and stick it on Myspace. JazzRoc was he right? Yes, but nobody wanted to know!
I would much prefer to stick to things I do know about such as nature but in this case I got involved in it by seeing skies that are not as they used to be, which you have convinced me is caused by far more water being in them, and I assume this was the case when this happened before as you have detailed regarding past occurrences of persistent contrails.

JazzRoc
I notice that you’ll find on the YouTube co-display page an article by Alex Jones concerning the Sun’s role in Global Warming, where he suggests this coming Solar Cycle will show the Sun’s brightness increasing by 50%. In the 4.6 billion years (and 200 million solar cycles) since the Sun and its solar system formed, the Sun has increased its brightness by (I think) 27%. This means that the mean brightness increase of the Sun per cycle is 0.000000135%. The Sun is not yet middle-aged in terms of its own life, and is expected to burn for another 10 billion years before it dies. It is proceeding smoothly, and showing just its usual behaviour – a tiny increase every cycle. It strains credibility to believe that THIS Solar cycle brightness increase is going to be 370 BILLION times greater…
So how can Alex Jones say this? Perhaps he isn’t a scientist, but I’ve just sat down with a calculator and rattled out the figures – and you can do it too. What sort of lunacy is this? Why does it happen these days? Where is the ACTION here? What’s the REAL agenda?

Bard of Ely
I saw that video. Alex says all sorts – a lot of it right and some of it wrong and as you say he is not a scientist which he admits! He is a good showman and a very successful alternative broadcaster and many people say all sorts of things about him good and bad. I have listened to him a lot over the years but not so much in recent months although I subscribe to his blog at Myspace, and I find myself knowing AJ supporters and others who are against him.
To answer your question why this is happening – there is the conspiracy theory that would tell you it is all part of the Illuminati Great Work of Ages plan and has been designed to be like this or maybe it’s just because a vast number of people want answers and are fed up with lies from politicians, governments, world leaders, religions, scientists, global manufacturers, and the media. Alex is one of many who provide answers so he has a ready audience. People have distrust in traditional leaders and ‘experts’ and want new ones – it’s been going this way for a long time and I would personally say a lot started in the sixties when people began looking for alternative ways and wanted to change the system. It’s when I got involved.

fant 230

unknown
first off i would like to say i am new to this subject and at present not swayed either way, but i have read both sides to this argument and the continuing argument between bard and jazzroc, jazzroc by your standards i am extremely uneducated, but reading the posts here by both you and bard i am dissapointed in the way in which such an educated person argues their point, firstly it seems you pick on a sentence and then discredit it as much as possible by insulting everything it implies, it’s like reading a list of insults rather than a fair and equal argument, and no doubt you will do the same to this comment picking up on bad spelling, grammar and such saying how uneducated i am, but i am and i can admit this, also you claim to be a scientist yet your views are firmly set with no room for change, does science not show us now that the impossible is possible? does history not show us that science get’s it wrong time and time again? you are everything that is wrong with science today! science is an ever-changing and growing subject and needs open-minded people for its progression, and yes this has been a bit of a snipe at you maybe unfairly, but try looking at things from a different point of view for a change, for if there is one thing life has taught me is that there is always 2 sides to everything! and if we point blank refuse to look at one side we become lost in our own delusions.

Bard of Ely
Thanks for your thought, unknown! Perhaps JazzRoc will reply to your points?

JazzRoc
“does science not show us now that the impossible is possible?” NO. The impossible has been shown forever to be, and to have been, impossible. The Universe is consistent to the laws we have uncovered to as far as we can see, which is to a distance of thirteen and a half billion light years. There are NO other rules operating other than the ones we have uncovered – other than the rules we HAVEN’T uncovered!
“does history not show us that science gets it wrong time and time again?” YES. And THEN it gets it RIGHT. Consider how you and your mother avoided death when you were born, and all the other aspects of your material existence which “wrong” science has got “right”, and contrived to make your life OTHER than “nasty, brutish, and short”! Consider the means by which you argue here. Consider that once I worked in a team to develop this means.
“you are everything that is wrong with science today!” Well, thanks. Had I known this, perhaps I would have have NOT designed the world’s first ethernet transceiver. Perhaps PEOPLE are what’s wrong with science. Perhaps you are a victim (already) of a dumbing-down process I saw begun in the early seventies. Perhaps you are also a victim of fiscal policy (namely the total surrender of “democratic” western governments to private banking interests). But you are NO victim of mine! I have been in opposition to every wicked and deleterious policy change I’ve seen occur since I’ve ever been able to vote. That’s almost EVERY CHANGE THAT HAS BEEN MADE. I opposed entry into the Common Market (Britain should be strong and self-sufficient and independent), I opposed the Conservative Selsdon Committee (that dumbed YOU down!), I opposed the destruction of the Engineering, Shipbuilding, Mining and Machine Tool Industries, I opposed the Falklands War, I opposed the destruction of the Coal Mines, I opposed the idea that Britain could be a Fiscal Service for the World (ridiculous!), I opposed the rapid exploitation of North Sea Gas (further destroying the mining industry), I opposed the feeding of meat to cows, I opposed the idea that GM pollinating plants merely needed a 20-yard separation (!), and I opposed entry into the Iraqi war. Then I LEFT THE COUNTRY.

I had become VERY FED UP of being ROBBED (in ALL uses of that term) CONTINUALLY over a forty-year period. Even now I am close to destitute, as employment is hard to find for a sixty-four-year-old Welshman without money or transport in a Spanish fishing resort village. But it is warm here, and I am close to my grandson, and my needs are few. I shall soon create a solar home and permaculture food garden and achieve true self-sufficiency.
“science is an ever changing and growing subject and needs open-minded people for its progression” Can’t disagree with you here! Of course, it is necessary to point out that to be “open-minded” requires that one is EDUCATED in the first place. Otherwise one merely “opens” an EMPTY mind…
“and yes this has been a bit of a snipe at you maybe un-fairly” Completely.
“but try looking at things from a different point of view for a change” Well, I’m a qualified engineer and industrial designer and practise those disciplines. Now I compose music. The idea of a “different point of view” is QUITE POPULAR with engineers, designers, musicians! It helps CREATE NEW THINGS.
“for if there is one thing life has taught me is that there is always 2 sides to everything!” Science isn’t a democratic debate. There is ONLY a CORRECT side and an INCORRECT side. Life hasn’t taught you ANYTHING, it seems…
“and if we point blank refuse to look at one side we become lost in our own delusions” No, you HOLD ONE. I’d like to point out that if I’m arguing with an American it really makes no difference – the same evil and wicked policies are maintained by both Britain and the States. If the cap fits…

unknown
ok, well you have indeed made some valid points against what i have said to you, and claiming that you are everything wrong with science today was unfair and i apologize for that comment, but to say i have been dumbed down is also a bit much, and when i talk of the impossible being possible one reference comes to mind and that is of quantum physics, but i will say thankyou for your reply and your comments and will discuss this more in due course. oh and just to clear that last part up,i am definatly not an american,i would like to say that my original comment was posted mainly for the way in which you come across, it is a little offensive in all honesty, and it bugged me, in reality i was not having ago at your abilities as a human being but more for the way that you put your point across, and somewhere in there i shall admit that i got a litte lost and sidetracked from the point i was getting at.

JazzRoc
I accept your apology. Quantum physics does at first seem as though the impossible may be possible, but there is a fantastic SCALE effect at work here. The scale of quantum physics is so small and local (and quick!) that the distances involved in organic molecules eg., from ONE peptide bond to the NEXT in a DNA molecule, become equivalent to the distances between stars. All the “magic” is taking place in a “storm” (which is not even of microscopic size!) which on the whole averages out as – “non-magic” – nothing. I am a Star Trek fan, and believe that “beam me up Scotty” (etc.) has tended to convince non-scientists that these types of events may some day be within the reach of scientists. These programmes are FANTASIES. Their “science” (in almost all cases!) is poor. One isn’t looking at a possible future – at all. It is quite wrong to mix up a blend of fear of the US govt with fanciful ideas with radio stations (HAARP), barium stearate powders (“chemtrails”), “nanotechnology”, “mindcontrol”, aliens, and what-have-you, instead of finding the real solutions to lung and skin diseases. The solutions will be found using Science, not Fantasy. In the meanwhile “chemtrails” are a harmful distraction, an additional problem.

steve
hey i’m from new zealand and they spray us here too. i know that they are definitely spraying something because you can’t turn a contrail on and off. we also see up to 4 planes spraying at once, they do a run across the city then turn around and spray again. i notice on days when they spray that all my flatmates seem to be more agitated and depressed. it seems to affect the wind. because our city usually is really windy and gets SE and N prevailing winds. but over the last 3 years the winds are coming from weird directions and it is hardly ever windy anymorei have also seen the rainbows in the fake clouds too i heard that there is a secret haarp installation here too

Bard of Ely
Steve, please have a look at contrailscience and JazzRoc’s blogs – the links are here to provide info. But basically you just seeing ice crystals forming the trails and fake cloud. They do not turn them on or off but are moving from one layer of the sky to another and if there is no water vapor present to crystallise as ice then you see no trail and it looks as if it’s turned off.
The rainbow effects are caused again by ice crystals – there are no forms of dust or particles metallic or otherwise that will cause this. It is likely that people are depressed and agitated by seeing the trails because if what they have heard about them as a danger and because it is something they have not seen until recently. However, there is nothing to fear apart from fear itself and the reason we see all these trails is because the sky has far more water in it and there are far far more planes up there
.

lynette
I am emailing you to inform you of a strike that is being organized on July 4th 2008 against the New World Order and the spraying of chemicals in our skies. I am hoping to reach as far as I can with the message that there are good people out there who really want to change things. We all need to support each other and create a the kind of world it should be. Please spread the word of change and promote this website after all this affects us all. Please visit www.freewebs.com/changetheworldforever for more info. We need to change what is happening to our world and to our skies, for the sake of ourselves and for generations to come.

MD FREE
H2O is a greenhouse gas and that cannot combat global warming. I didn’t read jazzroc’s comments and can’t help wonder if he flies the planes. Pollution does block sunlight from traveling deep into earth but I think there are better ways than pollution to stop global warming WTF!

Bard of Ely
I’m not sure who said water was combatting global warming so don’t really understand the point you are making but I am sure there are far too many planes seeing as they are causing the problem we are seeing and whilst I no longer believe that the trails and artifical clouds are toxic it is still not right at all to have all these tons of ice crystals blotting out the blue skies and sunlight! And many places could desperately use the water down here! Thanks for your feedback, MD!

MD FREE
The point I was making is frost and mist are h2o, not chemtrails. I am not saying that I believe in one side or the other on this, if you read the blog on myspace I was talking about, it was more detailed. I do think the theory falls in line with other theories that becoming more factual. At least, it is more believable than reptilian theories!

Bard of Ely
Thanks for explaining! Well, the strange thing is I am no longer a chemtrail believer after several years but I am a reptilian believer, although not so sure about the shapeshifting! I have actually just written over 3,000 words on why I believed in chemtrails and why I no longer do for another project. There was logical thought gone into both my belief and how I finally lost that belief but the most interesting part of it all for me was that when I was a chemtrail-believer I was blocking out seeing some things, which I knew. This was not logical thought but the control over my analytical mind by the belief system I had.

MD FREE
I am going to have to read your conversation with jazzroc when I have more time. I have some chemistry knowledge and would be happy to look at this as logically as possible.

Bard of Ely
MD, thanks for what you posted but for the video it is just like all the others of which I have seen hundreds. They all are claiming that the trails are chemtrails and I no longer accept that so there is nothing to fear from them for myself or others who do not believe. As for finding cures for the illnesses said to be caused by chemtrails this is an impossibility if the chemtrails do not exist and are merely ice which simply messes the sky up. The illnesses and symptoms are caused by many other things and obviously need to be cured but personally I see no point blaming the trails and I no longer do so.
BTW as an example, I have had chronic sinus problems that I believed to be caused by chemtrails. I no longer believe this and have concluded that the problem is caused by my deviated septum, which two doctors said was the reason. I have found a cure – salt water dropped down my nasal passages.

MD FREE
No big deal about the deleted posts, I didn’t feel comfortable putting the article up there. i would’ve sent a link but the profile I found it on is set to private so I do not think I could send a link. It was a lot longer of a article but I am not intent on changing your mind. The fascinating part I thought, was the evolving DNA. I started classes this week so I am becoming too busy for this subject. If I come across any proof you haven’t heard of I will send you a myspace message with a link. Lots of things can cause asthma and sinus problems, nearby trains using diesel, car pollution, airports, pollen. See you on another topic friend!

Bard of Ely
Yes, lots of things present in the modern world can and do produce symptoms like sinus problems and asthma that get blamed on chemtrails! Yes, there are all manner of theories about DNA – depends who you agree with really! Michael Tsarion says we all have alien DNA mixed with human and that is the root cause of evil in the world. It’s a good explanation. Michael doesn’t think there are any saviours for the world condition but ourselves and I am inclined to agree with him on both counts. This is our nightmare and we have to deal with it!

toxicpolarbear
hey. i hear planes at the same time every morning. I live in gwealod y garth in cardiff. we have had some really heavy downpours but i gues the rain is everywhere anyway. I have uncontrollable burny sneezing fits random spates & ive never had hayfever. Could be dust but i think i would be sneezing all of the time if was. my sleep patterns change and i feel different when i drink tap water.

Bard of Ely
I know Gwaelod y Garth very well – a beautiful place! No, rain at all here – in fact a drought! I hope the tap water doesn’t have fluoride in it like it does in many places now – a much worse threat than chemtrails, which I don’t any more believe exist! Sneezing is caused by many things and there are countless things which people are allergic to with cats, house dust mites and many types of pollen being a few. In many places people are exposed to pollens like oil seed rape that is a fairly new crop that is being cultivated on a wide scale.

Sean
If these don’t exist how come there is this chemtrail tracking site I go to that tells you when they will be here and when they won’t be here and it’s dead on 90% of the time? How would this guy know if they did not exist? I mean I think they do exist and they are up to something up there, what it is I have no clue but I have heard both sides of the argument and use common sense when I look up and I know these are different from the contrails I see on some days. Some days I see contrais and then these all over the sky. Jazzroc and his arguments are not going to sway me from these things or make it like they don’t exist, like the devil they exist and they don’t want you to know it. I am staying believing and studying these and reading about them. Some say they know some who fly and say they do spray these things and think it is for our good, some say it’s just chaff and the military does spray it to jam radar, check those out in youtube. It has been on the news in Cali as well and weather channels if you look for it, so people do know and are up on these things, not enough people but some know. BTW as for the tracking site, I would put it up but some idiot will try to get it taken down if they are with the GOVT. or looking to keep these a wrap, I think I will pass but thats NO LIE. He tells when they will be spraying, and bottom line it happens.

Bard of Ely
Please post the tracking site here! As far as I am concerened it is simple to predict when trials will occur if you know flight paths. The problem with the subject is that chemtrail believers call persistent contrails “chemtrails” and non-believers call them contrails. And it is a belief system because I am a past believer and it was very hard for JazzRoc to get me to see the logic of his arguments! I am now a non-believer. I could give you an example of predicting trails: at around 10am on Sundays in winter but not in summer a plane goes across where I live and it leaves a long lasting trail that I used to call a chemtrail. Pics I have posted of this believers call a chemtrail, as I did. But now if I see the same trail and accept it as a persistent contrail of ice crystals. Conditions have changed and we are now seeing persistent trails which we have not been used to seeing and we have been led by those propagting the chemtrail belief to call them chemtrails but they are simply long lasting trails of ice crystals I now believe.

bozena
JazzRoc is a well known DISINFORMIST. He magically appears at any discussion of atmospheric manipulation discussion and thwarts it with local fallacy pseudo-science, mostly released as countermeasures to chemtrail discussion. BEWARE!!
Bard of Ely, i still can’t believe how easily you’ve been pushed over.

Bard of Ely
As I have explained before JazzRoc is none of the things people claim he is! He is someone I know personally and have met many times and actually worked on music with as well as having enjoyed walks around the island here. But people post other opinions about him when they know nothing about him apart from the fact that he does not believe in chemtrails.
If you read what I have written you will find that my belief in the subject was already on shaky grounds when I found that the air in South Wales under “chemtrailed” skies was cleaner than usual not badly polluted. At the time I couldn’t understand this as I had been led to believe by chemtrailers that the air was being poisoned. Clearly it was not the case. I have not seen any evidence for chemtrails as a reality apart from all the videos, photos, reports etc by chemtrail believers and what I used to think were chemtrails.

I have concluded that the chemtrail belief system is a disinformation campaign itself and a very successful one.

Tremblor3.05L

Science on Trails

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PAGE CONTENTS

SCIENCE ON TRAILS – SERIOUS – SHOULD – SKYWITNESS

Don’t forget my other pages, links and comments are one click away at the top right of the page… 

SCIENCE (MAINSTREAM) ON TRAILS

contrails-a

USAF – “Contrails can remain visible for VERY LONG PERIODS OF TIME with the lifetime a function of the temperature, humidity, winds, and aircraft exhaust characteristics.”
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WIKI – “Observation and scientific analysis of contrails, and their duration, date back to at least 1953.”
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EPA – contrails can last for hours and GROW IN SIZE by taking water from the surrounding atmosphere. The trails spread due to “air turbulence created by the passage of other aircraft, differences in wind speed along the flight track, and possibly through effects of solar heating” – CSI (started by Carl Sagan and Isaac Asimov)
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John Day, meteorologist – “Contrail formation, depends on the relative humidity of the atmosphere – the ratio of what is to what could be at a particular temperature. When relative humidity is low, contrails dissipate within seconds. But when relative humidity is high, especially at the subzero temperatures of the upper atmosphere, the addition of even a tiny amount of water vapor acts as a catalyst. Under these conditions, contrails may linger and spread to cover the whole sky. …At length, Day extracted from his bookshelf a well-thumbed edition of Peterson’s Field Guide to Clouds and Weather, which he co-authored in 1991 (a good 10 years before chemtrails became widely discussed), turned to the section on contrails, and pointed to a photograph of a thick, white plume–a plume that looked for all the world like a chemtrail…” – http://wweek.com/flatfiles/News1982.html
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Patrick Minnis of NASA’s Langley Research Center *- “If you try to pin these people down and refute things, it’s, ‘Well, you’re just part of the conspiracy’ … Logic is not exactly a real selling point for most of them. The cloud-forming contrails that conspiracy theorists find so ominous are perfectly natural” – http://usatoday.com/usatonline/20010307/3117139s.htm

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* Dr. Minnis’s career is outlined in “Penrod”: https://jazzroc.wordpress.com/2008/10/27/26-penrod/
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NMSR Reports, Vol. 5, No. 12, December 1999 – “In summary, there is no evidence that these “chemtrails” are other than expected, normal contrails from jet aircraft that vary in their shapes, duration, and general presentation based on prevailing weather conditions. That is not to say that there could not be an occasional, purposeful experimental release of, say, high altitude barium for standard wind tracking experiments. There could also be other related experiments that occur from time-to-time which release agents into the atmosphere. However, not one single picture that was presented as evidence indicates other than normal contrail formation.”

contrails-b

“The variation in presentation is explained by the tropospheric conditions and, to some extent, the positioning of aircraft engines. When the troposphere experiences a relatively stable, supersaturated condition (water vapor in excess of 100% humidity without condensation), then any disturbance that causes formation of ice crystals provides nucleation surfaces for the supersaturated moisture to condense upon. When a jet engine burns its fuel, the major byproduct is water vapor. When the exhaust passes over the rear stabilizer of an aircraft, the tips or ends of the stabilizer cause the exhaust to expand rapidly. When it does, the temperature decreases rapidly within a turbulent flow, and ice crystal formation is forced.

contrails-c

Generally, this makes it look as if the jet were spraying a cloud from the ends of the stabilizer. If the atmosphere is not at saturation, the contrail will not persist. The formed ice crystals will sublimate into the surrounding atmosphere. Hence, the appearance of a short, well formed vapor trail. If the water content is very low, then no discernible contrail will form at all. All the exhaust water will be absorbed by the atmosphere before there is time to form ice crystals.
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If the atmospheric water content is not consistent with altitude (picture atmospheric “waves” of high water vapor content below a layer of low water vapor content much like waves on the ocean), then a jet will alternately pass through air that allows contrail formation and air that does not.
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This gives the appearance of a dashed line if the plane is flying at, or near the perpendicular to the waves. If the atmosphere is highly supersaturated, then the formed ice crystals may act as nucleation centers for a continual spreading of the contrail. In other words, the contrail actually causes the supersaturated moisture to condense, spreading out from its original path. This causes the formation of a cirrostratus cloud structure, far in excess of what would occur from a simple contrail.”

contrails-d

One other phenomenon observed is the formation of contrails off wing surfaces along with the engine exhaust contrails. This can be caused when the air is highly supersaturated and the expansion of the air coming off of the wing surface is sufficient to cause ice crystallization. In this case, it appears that the whole plane is leaving a trail. This can often be observed by a passenger flying in a commercial airplane when entering cold, supersaturated air, particularly in the winter when close to a storm front.”
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M. Kim Johnson, Physicist – “There were no pictures or evidence that indicated anything other than the above contrail formation phenomena. Anecdotal stories of persons getting sick after contrails from obviously supersaturated tropospheric conditions lend no basis for belief that there are chemicals or biological agents being released. This type of story provides as much credence to “chemtrails” as does the belief that drinking milk is causally linked to heroin addiction. (Almost all heroin addicts in the US drank milk as children.)”

h1

 SERIOUS

“those in power crimes against humanity” – Those in power normally commit their crimes against anyone who threatens them – closest first.

“google these” – Done that, have t-shirt.

“I get ill, I feel nauseous and get disoriented from them” – Illness, nausea and disorientation are more often the consequences of the western diet and stress levels.

“UFO’s hovering close proximity to trails” – are more likely to be PLASTIC BAGS borne aloft. You don’t see’em elsewhere because you’re ONLY looking for trails.

“Los Angeles defiantly purposeful” – Isn’t one of the LARGEST AIRPORTS IN THE WORLD (LAX) NEARBY?

“turn off/on same paths” – Contrails through layers of differing humidities.

“above and in clouds” – Where clouds are there is MORE WATER.

“clouds dissipate/spread out/NO RAIN” – Stratospheric clouds will go OVER THE HORIZON before they have fallen and warmed sufficiently to cause rain.

“NEVER disappear” – WELL, THEY DO DISAPPEAR, DON’T THEY?

“dissipate/fall to earth/city/fog” – SEA MIST, AUTO SMOG. I’VE BEEN THERE TOO.

“watching for years now” – YEAH, ME TOO.

“Other jets fly close in altitude and areas, with rapidly dissipating trails” – You are SEVEN MILES BENEATH and are UNABLE TO DISTINGUISH INVISIBLE STRATOSPHERIC LAYERS WITH DIFFERING HUMIDITIES FROM BENEATH.

“(other) trails spread into a web covering the entire sky from an operation” – ARE THE CONSEQUENCE OF NORMAL PASSENGER SHUTTLE ROUTES AT ANGLES TO EACH OTHER.

“Jets should not be making turns” – YOU CANNOT BE SERIOUS.

mac

 SHOULD

“Go ahead and post your theories” – this is known science as in http://www.contrailscience.com

“if you really are a government plant, go suck a chemtrail” – No. I’m an educated Welshman who despises charlatans.

“We would still think the world was flat if we listened to your method of reasoning” – so you’re plainly anti-science, then?

“Everyone SHOULD be questioning and exploring what’s going on (unless of course you have an agenda to obfuscate the truth!)” – then how come you haven’t managed to find a good science textbook?

“It’s counter productive to denounce people’s ideas on the basis that you (condescendingly I might add) believe they are unsure or uneducated” – There’s ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT IN MY MIND that you are EITHER uneducated OR evil. More likely uneducated, yet literate enough to indulge yourself in sophistry. There’s NOTHING productive about your pseudo-science.

“In my mind there has not yet been a convincing explanation as to what the Chemtrails are” – so you’re plainly anti-science, then?

“you are suggesting that it is evil to explore any theory unless you are sure it’s true” – I am suggesting that it is EVIL to PROMULGATE any theory unless you are SURE it’s true. Your MISDIRECTION?

“You are also implying that since you are sure of your explanation” – IT’S IN ANY SCIENCE TEXTBOOK COVERING THE ATMOSPHERE.

“everyone else’s is wrong and evil” – No, let’s be particular. YOURS is wrong and evil.

“That reasoning goes against the advancement of science and progress” – YOUR reasoning goes against the advancement of science and progress.

st

 

 SKYWITNESS (1)

 “what you’re made of” – Hi, SKYWITLESS, here you are arguing with me on someone else’s site. You can’t do that on your own site because YOU HAVE BLOCKED ME. You appear to be made of hypocrisy.

“trails” APPEAR TO BE “turned on and off” because THE PLANE FLIES “through layers of differing humidities” – Were you to attempt to PROPERLY UNDERSTAND THE ATMOSPHERE, you would soon see that that way the stratospheric layers slide over each other without intermixing GUARANTEES that they will posses DIFFERENT HUMIDITIES AND TEMPERATURES. A CLUE – sometimes the boundaries between layers ARE turbulent, and you will SEE CIRRUS APPEAR. Best done when sunning yourself on a beach.

“Show us one video that supports” – NO VIDEO! TRY READING!

“this claim of yours” – IS WELL-DOCUMENTED ESTABLISHED ATMOSPHERIC SCIENCE, not “MY CLAIM”. It is UP TO YOU TO READ AND LEARN.

“NWO forces cannot control the free-will of people” – YOU ARE PRAYING.

“They are scared to death of the people becoming united in one mindset and purpose” – YOU ARE CHANTING.

“A people like this can defeat the NWO forces” – YOU ARE INTONING.

“This is why they send people like jazzroc to make noise and try and sow confusion” – AND NOW YOU ARE LYING.

“but just laugh at people like jazzroc and send them on their way” – Yes, tell others not to think. Liar. Hypocrite. Coward.

liar

 SKYWITNESS (2)

Skywitness
Hi ludosophist, as you know anyone can say anything about chemtrails; however video evidence of jets spraying chemtrails is much stronger than the words of anyone who says that chemtrails don’t exist. If you don’t believe that chemtrails are being sprayed, then how do you explain the numerous videos which show them being turned on and off? Do you also agree with Jazzroc’s explanation of how this happens? If you don’t want to call them chemtrails, then what do you want to call them?

ludosophist
They key here is rational weighing of evidence. The off/on thing is the only loose end Jazz didn’t tackle, or maybe I skipped that part accidentally.

(He did.)
If you could zoom in to a nozzle device, and actually show that, it would be evidence. Personally, considering the history of nasty shit the government has done (assasinations, depleted uranium, etc.) I don’t rule it out, but after learning more about relative humidity distribution I have to weight that they’re more likely contrails.
Skywitness
Perhaps one day I will be able to zoom in and capture the spray nozzles. At this time however, I have numerous videos showing jets turning the chemtrail spray on and off. Take a look at the videos and tell me if you still think the on/off action is a result of relative humidity distribution. If you still think that these are normal contrails can you find any reputable books that explain how contrails can do such a thing?

ludosophist
Here’s my rationale:
1) It’s plausible, there is an evil oligarchy with a lot of power that does stuff like this on smaller scales.
2) It maybe not be possible because you can’t burn barium into an aerosol.
3) P(god exists) < P(Chemtrails) < P(Bin Ladin Dead)
4) Argentina has few of these trails to speak of because there is little commercial airflight and no active airforce. Or, the NWO wants to reserve it for recreation. Either way, I’m moving there.
5) Hyper-inflation, food shortages.

jazzroc
Skywitness, if you just video the sun rising in the East, and setting in the West (assuming that “chemtrails” allow you to do this) you will do two NEAT things:
1) You will PROVE that the Sun goes round the Earth.
2) You will BURN out your camera chip, and give us ALL a break…
Skywitness
Your talk is cheap…Provide a science book that explains how a jet trail coming from a jet already in flight can go on and off. You said: “trails” APPEAR TO BE “turned on and off” because THE PLANE FLIES “through layers of differing humidities” – Were you to attempt to PROPERLY UNDERSTAND THE ATMOSPHERE, you would soon see that that way the stratospheric layers slide over each other without intermixing” Where’s the science book that backs up your claim? Put up or shut up.

JazzRoc
CHECK WIKI. STRATOSPHERE. There’s enough in that page for one to infer what I’ve told you. Work it out for yourself. I’ll be damned if I’ll lead you by the hand through the ONE PAGE after you have slandered me for six months. Perhaps your physics is too miserable to cope.. should I care? Alternatively: jazzroc.wordpress.com
Skywitness
CHECKMATE!!! The self-proclaimed 63 year old scientist, who when asked to provide a science book to back up his scientific claims about why a contrail appears to go on and off, can’t do it. The bottomline is you can’t do it because there is no science that backs up your bogus claim. Your defeated in the open field…Surrender your sword. Do the right thing now and tell ludosophist and the rest of the world why you have chosen to lie continously about the ongoing chemtrail spray program.

JazzRoc
Mr. sophisticated game-player, I like your vid so much that I bunged it in my video log. Thanks very much! I DID cover off/on, several times and rather thoroughly. I also uncovered a “chemtrailer” airbrushing one into existence… and it’s a popular picture quoted in several vids…
JazzRoc
AS WIKI (ON THE PAGE I INDICATED) SAYS: “It is stratified in temperature, with warmer layers higher up and cooler layers farther down, which makes the stratosphere dynamically stable”
THIS MEANS THAT THE STRATOSPHERE IS LAYERED (LIKE AN ONION) AND IS LARGELY UNAFFECTED BY THE TROPOSPHERE, WHICH IS WHAT I’VE ALWAYS MAINTAINED.
THAT PAGE GOES ON TO SAY: “horizontal mixing of gases components proceeds much more rapidly than vertical mixing” – WHICH IS ANOTHER WAY OF SAYING THAT THE LAYERS WILL NATURALLY BE OF VARYING HUMIDITIES, BECAUSE THEY RECEIVE THEIR WATER FROM THEIR SIDES AND NOT FROM ABOVE OR BELOW. THEY ARE “HUMIDIFIED” MAINLY BY A PHENOMENON CALLED “QUASI-BIENNIAL OSCILLATION”. “The QBO induces a secondary circulation that is important for the global stratospheric transport of tracers such as ozone or water vapor”.
THIS QUASI-BIENNIAL OSCILLATION IS THE PRIMARY “PUMP” FOR THE MOVEMENT OF WATER VAPOR THROUGH THE STRATOSPHERE. THERE IS, OF COURSE, NOW, A SECONDARY SUPPLY OF WATER VAPOR FROM PASSENGER PLANES AS THEY EITHER HUMIDIFY IT – OR MAKE PERSISTENT CONTRAILS.
“bottomline is you can’t do it” WHOOPS “because there is no science that backs up your bogus claim” AND “You’re defeated in the open field…Surrender your sword.” AND “you have chosen to lie continously about the ongoing chemtrail spray program” ARE THUS THE WORDS OF A STUPID SLANDEROUS IDLE LAYABOUT WHO THINKS THAT OTHERS ARE AS LAZY AS HE IS, LACKING AS HE DOES THE IQ TO UNDERSTAND WHEN HE’S BEATEN (ONCE AGAIN).

hercules_in_new_york